United’s CEO Is Partially Right But Unrealistic About the Dual Chicago Hub


It’s a day ending in “y” so nobody should be surprised that United CEO Scott Kirby is making news once again. This time, he’s talking about how American de-hubbing O’Hare would actually be great news for the people of Chicagoland. It may sound crazy, but he’s right… as long as you count “great news” to mean more destinations and nothing else. Even in this universe, however, it’s not realistic. Welcome to the latest installment of Beyond ORD Gates.

Scott has been beating a drum for years that American will be forced to de-hub Chicago, because it is losing so much money there. As of now, he believes American is losing about $1.1 billion a year in Chicago, and that’s likely to grow. Frankly, that is neither here nor there unless you’re an American shareholder looking for near-term gain.

The reality for American is that it has already lost New York, it is losing ground in Los Angeles, and it screwed up Chicago too. American used to take more local passengers and do better in Chicago than United, but after COVID, United made bold moves while American sat there. American can’t really become number one in any of these markets again, not with the way Delta and United are pouring in capacity and taking corporate share. But in Chicago, it can at least be a solid number two — well, excluding Midway, depending how you count it, at least.

These big three markets may not have mattered as much in the past, but now they not only support a lot of capacity but they also generate huge money in terms of loyalty and credit cards. American does now need to be big in these market if it wants to compete with Delta and United, but perhaps even more important is that American and every other airline in the US has a vested interest in not letting United dominate Chicago. That would give United the one thing that it wants that American and Delta alone have in Dallas/Fort Worth and Atlanta respectively… a hub capable of running 1,000 daily departures. I haven’t modeled how much worse off American would be if that happened, but I would hope they have over there at Skyview. It would be bad. And American has been thrown a lifeline to stave that off.

United had beaten American in Chicago with its moves post-pandemic. If the airport’s gate allocation plan went as expected, United would just keep taking more and more and American less and less. But then the feds stepped in. They capped operations this summer at levels that favored American and ignored United’s recent build-up. That meant that United’s whole gate allocation plan broke, and American is back in the game.

So now, Scott is out there spreading the gospel about how American will still have to abandon O’Hare, and he is doing pre-damage control by trying to convince Chicagoans that this is a good thing. He said this at a Crain’s Power Breakfast in Chicago, and it has spread like wildfire:

Network hubs require airlines to feed customers from smaller markets, what the industry refers to as “catchment” flights. But there is a limit to the total number of flights that the airspace around a large airport can accommodate.

You have twice as many catchment flights: There’s twice as many flights to Milwaukee as there would be the equivalent number of flights from, you know, at Atlanta to Charlotte um or Atlanta to Raleigh Durham. So that constrained resource of the number of flights [that can flow through the airspace around O’Hare] is being used to fly twice as many flights to those local markets that don’t really drive the local Chicago economy.

Got it? Basically, Delta and American have their massive home-base hubs that can be a gateway to the world. They can cram through more seats on fewer flights from feeder cities, and then they can support a whole lot more flights to new destinations with that increased level of feed. United and American are both over-serving every feed market from Chicago — since they are in closed systems that don’t feed each other — so there isn’t enough room to optimize and grow new markets. A lot is being wasted on competitive positioning.

In general, this is true. And we can see it in the data.

July 2026 Average Daily Departures to Destination by MSA Size at the Hub

Data via Cirium

What I did is look at the average daily departures by destination within the population bands by MSA served by the airport. And what it shows is that combined, American and United do indeed have more daily flights from Chicago than the others do at their own single-hub airports. This isn’t a surprise. But individually, they are much smaller.

Scott mentions Milwaukee, and that’s a great and easy example to use. Here are all flights from Milwaukee to Chicago/O’Hare from both airlines on Monday, July 12, 2026 as an example:

Just look at all that overlap. It’s completely unnecessary except for competitive positioning. The passenger numbers aren’t there, and that’s why there are six flights on 50-seaters, five flights on 65-seaters, and three flights on 76-seaters. That’s it.

Now what Scott is saying here is that if American disappears, United wouldn’t need to replace all those flights. It could not replace them or it could upgauge if needed. But that frees up a lot of airport runway and gate capacity, so United could grow by feeding more spokes with more flights on bigger airplanes.

The people of Milwaukee wouldn’t suffer, because they aren’t flying to Chicago anyway. They’re flying through Chicago. They could still fly American, but they would just have to fly through a different hub. And the people of Chicago would be happy, because they would get some flight further afield where they actually want to go in exchange for losing a flight to Milwaukee that they would never take anyway.

With all that extra capacity, O’Hare might see about 250 fewer daily flights, but United would have 1,000 of them and it would be able to build a more formidable hub. It could bring more people into Chicago, generating more demand for outbound flights to all sorts of new and fun destinations. This is what Scott is talking about when he says the area would benefit.

The problem, of course, is not in Milwaukee. It’s in those cities where Chicagoans actually go. Would Chicagoans be better off if they could only fly United to Orlando? It would probably be more expensive. Or would some other airline just backfill? What about a smaller city like, say, Pittsburgh? There are more than 300 daily passengers each way flying between those cities as their origin and destination. Would they be better off if American was gone? It’s hard to imagine that.

As is the case with most things, this would be a trade-off. Chicago would stand to benefit by gaining new routes to new destinations with that . If you can tune the hub to run that way, it’s an impressive thing. But this all seems like a discussion that’s for naught. Yes, it may make sense financially to walk away in a vacuum, but there is a whole lot more to consider. And American leaving Chicago just seems impossible.

This is why I think Scott’s best hope is that a future management team at American will talk more about that merger he wants to push. To be clear, I don’t think that’s in any way likely, but now that the O’Hare gate plan has been blown up by the feds, it’s United’s best hope.

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62 responses to “United’s CEO Is Partially Right But Unrealistic About the Dual Chicago Hub”

  1. abcdefg Avatar
    abcdefg

    The obvious cost to Chicago is higher fares, but with WN at MDW and the opening of gate space for other LCCs (F9, G4), is that really a concern?

    1. SandyCreek Avatar
      SandyCreek

      For itineraries involving cities too small to sustain a mainline aircraft, airlines at MDW are mostly out of the question. Pathetic as AA’s long haul network stands, it does also carry alliance presence, and those partners can’t take advantage of AA connections. That also doesn’t account for the cascading catastrophic effect on AA’s network for much of the Midwest in the absence of a mid continent hub north of Dallas.

  2. Southside Emil Avatar
    Southside Emil

    Replace the Stooges at AA Corporate with people who can strategize and execute in this decade and UA will be facing a formidable competitor.

  3. SubwayNut Avatar

    For Chicago to Milwaukee there is also another option. CoachUSA’s Wisconsin Coach Line’s bus:
    It connects ORD and Milwaukee (including a stop at MKE Airport) hourly with the journey scheduled for 110 minutes southbound and only 90 minutes Northbound hourly throughout the day! Even after adding 10 minutes for the ATS ride since all intercity buses stop at the Intermodal/Car Rental Facilty, some of those bus trips have shorter scheduled travel times than the block times of some of the flights.

  4. Jason H Avatar
    Jason H

    Was that statement meant to change or influence anyone or anything?

    I can’t imagine a single bit of good PR or really any upside at all to saying that Chicago would be better off without AA.

    1. SEAN Avatar
      SEAN

      Scott is just one in a line of current CEO’s who have shown themselves to be unable to read a room based on the insane statements they give to the press or other groups. Want proof? Listen to Elon Musk or any CEO of an AI company & substitute their statements with Scott Kurby’s own words & you will notice it’s the same over the top garbage, but in a different industry.

      1. See_Bee Avatar
        See_Bee

        You’re not wrong, but I think that’s the whole strategy. By bringing up these ideas for public discussion, it “normalizes” them and gets people (somewhat) more comfortable & accepting of them

        1. SEAN Avatar
          SEAN

          You mean like AI & data centers? I don’t think so.

          1. See_Bee Avatar
            See_Bee

            With data centers, you have people vocal on both sides of the issue. It would probably help AA if Isom did some PR to rally the troops and keep AA relevant in customers’ minds, but you know, that hasn’t really (ever) been a priority for him

            1. SEAN Avatar
              SEAN

              Does he know how to do that? One can wonder.

    2. Brett Avatar

      Jason H – Scott is always playing the long game when he makes a statement. In this case, he is trying to soften the blow if AA were to disappear. Anything that can help locals to see it as not being terrible will help if a time comes when it’s a possibility. Like a lot of what Scott says, it may not come to fruition, but it helps cement the idea that it is a possibility, and then it tries to change the narrative that it’s a bad thing.

  5. SandyCreek Avatar
    SandyCreek

    The merger he wants to push would result in a combined ASM of ~600b (unprecedented by a long long shot), multiple duplicate hubs, and what feels like much too high of a market share for any normal competitive aviation markets for a country as large and reliant on air travel as the US. Is Kirby really expecting that to fly through reviews for foreign countries? The KE-OZ merger has had to squeeze through some reviews…

    1. Brett Avatar

      Sandy – Not sure if this is a rhetorical question, but visionaries tend not to worry about the details. They see an end goal which makes a lot of sense, and then they just find people to help them to get there. Any close look at this plan would bring up a million problems, but what’s the harm in putting the idea out there? I don’t expect it would ever happen either, but you can see why he’d like it.

  6. See_Bee Avatar
    See_Bee

    AA should have closed a hub post-merger like DL (MEM, CVG) & UA (CLE, deprioritized IAD for a period) to free up aircraft and take more dominate positions in other hubs. If I’m AA, if I de-hub ORD now, what do I do with those aircraft? Add even more flights in DFW or CLT? It’s too late. That doesn’t solve anything…

    1. John G Avatar
      John G

      They tried to do that. They tried hard to work up something with JetBlue and that would’ve changed this game a little bit. The feds killed that.

      The northeast alliance would’ve put American in a far better position. It didn’t happen, and they are still playing defense. The irony is that now in a different administration, they may allow United to do what the prior administration wouldn’t allow American to do.

      One other question. Kirby talks about how much money American is losing in Chicago. I’m not thinking that American is losing 1 billion a year in United is making money at the same time. If they were, he wouldn’t care.

    2. SEAN Avatar
      SEAN

      Not only that, you seed the northern half of the country to three rivals… Southwest at MDW, United as discussed & Delta in MSP/ DTW. I know that population growth has been waited toward the sunbelt for quite a while, but that won’t help American as there are other places people want to fly to & from.

    3. Eric R Avatar
      Eric R

      This is very true, the problem for AA unlike DL/UA is that there were no obvious candidates so I think they struggled to identify one to close.

      CLT: Their smallest sized metro area hub just so happens to accommodate 700 daily flights. So can’t cut that.

      PHX: Metro area of 5 million and is a profitable hub – not cutting that.

      LA / ORD / NYC: – hubs where they most likely lose money but can’t cut due to corporate importance.

      DCA: Profitable and slot controlled to guarantee profitability

      MIA: LatAm gateway

      PHL: NE / Trans-AtL hub. Could have closed if AA had the same scale at JFK as DL.

      I’d be curious which hub you would propose cutting ?

      1. See_Bee Avatar
        See_Bee

        I’ll give you that it was less obvious compared with DL/UA, but that still feels like an excuse. I’d argue PHX or PHL:

        PHX – it’s a growing metro but it’s primarily seasonal leisure traffic. It’s not a big corporate market. WN has a focus city there too. Instead, focus on gauge and frequency at LAX where it had the lead at the time
        PHL – move tails to NYC. Recall at the time, AA had a stronghold on corporate traffic in NYC, which has since disappeared. PHL suffers from drive-diverts to EWR as well (my in-laws used to do this all the time)

        DL (for example) had to make some choices giving up its legacy hubs, so it’s not like they didn’t have trade-offs. There’s a decent amount of corporate traffic in CVG (P&G, GE) and MEM (tons of FedEx pilots deadheading)

        1. SandyCreek Avatar
          SandyCreek

          Those two may have made sense back when AA commanded enough gates in LAX and slots in JFK, however those preconditions no longer apply. The additional problem with closing these hubs is the much higher CPE for any connections they would like to sell that has to route through a southwestern (PHX -> LAX) or northeast TATL (PHL -> JFK) hub.

        2. Steven Avatar
          Steven

          It may not need to be a full closure but if I was AA can you cut 5-10% from CLT, DFW, PHL, PHX and re-allocate it to ORD + NYC + LAX? It doesn’t have to be routes entirely either but could they downgauge (ie run a 737) from a dominant hub (and charge more anyway) and upgauge (run a 321) from a lesser hub?

          If it’s purely a tails problem, dropping a few frequencies in a dominant hub would help too. Thankfully with few retirements planned and new tails coming they should be able to add capacity to the places they need it.

          The issue they face is UA should be growing on the NB side and be moving to more efficient widebodies faster. DL is likely just getting more efficient vs growing significantly. WN is mostly just getting more upgauged and efficient NBs with Max deliveries.

          Alliance wise: AS growing could help! Can they improve codesharing? B6 is less likely to help UA. It’s small but on the TPAC side getting Philippine Airlines + Starlux could help OW and AA. I don’t think Star or SkyTeam will get the same help.

          AA is definitely down but they aren’t entirely out.

        3. --- Avatar

          AA uses PHX, PHL, and CLT primarily for connections. Cost per enplanement supposedly at CLT is the lowest in the system. Likewise, driving connections at PHL instead of JFK lowers cost. But it does mean they don’t have the same schedule breadth in JFK and LAX as the competition.

          1. stormcrash Avatar
            stormcrash

            Which is one of those penny wise and pound foolish mistakes American keeps making. Low CPE doesn’t mean much if it kills your network effect and sends all your lucrative corporate accounts fleeing. By chasing a raw cost saving they drastically hurt their ability to generate revenue, because the excuse that people would be willing to go to PHL from the NY metro area just never happened.

        4. southbay flier Avatar
          southbay flier

          How do you get much more flying out of the NYC airports with their slot controls? Delta got the deal of the century in trading its LGA slots with US Air for its DCA slots.

          1. See_Bee Avatar
            See_Bee

            Higher gauge is one way to solve it. Take mainline planes out of PHL and upgauge regional jets in LGA & JFK

            Conversely, maybe it isn’t worth the upgauging as it’s a losing battle due to slots, and AA should have double-down at PHL to make a stronger US-EU connecting hub (but it’s not too far from CLT)

            My point is that by not picking one or the other and trying to keep both hubs has led to a sub-optimal outcome. Airlines are all about scale and AA didn’t commit to that

            1. SEAN Avatar
              SEAN

              A slot is a slot regardless if it is filled with a E190 or a 737. As they become more valuable, upgaging will all airlines to do two things… 1. carry more passengers per flight & 2. decrease congestion at primary hubs.

  7. Dave Avatar
    Dave

    American isn’t leaving Chicago, no matter how often Scott Kirby tries to wish it into existence. Corporate contracts come and go, and corporate loyalty is often only as strong as the contract’s expiration date. Meanwhile, American is making up for lost time by strengthening its network and improving its onboard experience.

    The real issue is simple: Delta has Atlanta, and American has Dallas-Fort Worth. Those hubs are gold mines. United has no true equivalent. Denver doesn’t cut it, and Houston isn’t as well-positioned as DFW. United needs American to leave O’Hare so Chicago can become its gold mine. American doesn’t need to make Chicago a fortress. It just needs to remain a strong No. 2, reaching the upper midwest and North East that can’t be done well from anywhere else.

    Kirby’s biggest advantages may be his ego, big mouth and United’s stellar marketing department. Flying to Nuuk makes a great headline, but I doubt anyone is mistaking it for a cash machine.

    1. 1990 Avatar
      1990

      Well said, Dave. Not to mention, if American ever truly reduced itself at ORD, United wouldn’t all-of-the-sudden shower the Windy City with altruistic new routes; they’d just use the ‘breathing room’ to tighten the screws on pricing and corporate contracts.

  8. eolesen Avatar
    eolesen

    He’s mostly right. There’s a lot of wasted effort just to try and maintain parity with UA, and DL is also a strong competitor in all of those upper midwest markets via DTW and MSP. Cutting back at ORD to serve some high O&D routes would be a much better outcome for them, and they’d have one less bad weather hub to deal with.

    Taking that lift to build up PHX, CLT, DFW & MIA would pay off in the long run. That’s where the population growth is.

    1. Bevvy Avatar
      Bevvy

      Disagree 1,000%. ORD is critical to AA.

      1. SEAN Avatar
        SEAN

        Exactly. What is American without Chicago? An international Southwest stuck in the sunbelt.

        1. southbay flier Avatar
          southbay flier

          Which makes them even more irreverent to travelers like me who mostly travel around the northern half of the country.

  9. The Joker Avatar
    The Joker

    Listening to your podcasts, you seem to be not American’s biggest fan, perhaps even a bias against it. The American terminal at ORD is packed every day. The Admiral Clubs (maybe not G so much) packed every day. I do agree through with your earlier podcast, that Nat would be a great choice going forward.

    1. emac Avatar
      emac

      Listening to last week’s podcast, you can hear Cranky’s frustration with AA’s leadership (particularly Isom) and their never-ending indecisiveness. Even the latest personnel announcement was introduced as “first step of many” — if you know what steps you need to make, what are you waiting for?

      Also crowded doesn’t mean profitable.

  10. O'Hare Is My Second Home Avatar
    O’Hare Is My Second Home

    As someone who actually flies AA and occasionally UA out of ORD, I think I can speak from a vantage point of experience. I do a lot of regional flying, and between the two, I’m covered well. I just have the feeling that UA won’t backfill those destinations if AA abandons ship, making my life a lot more inconvenient. Otherwise, all I need to do is status match back to UA, switch my United Club Card to a more prominent position in my wallet, and turn right instead of left in the parking garage. What’s on the livery doesn’t matter. I don’t think I’m the only one. Getting rid of the redundancy would be great for ORD.

    1. Bill from DCA Avatar
      Bill from DCA

      You wouldn’t worry at all about pricing? Is all of your travel business related?

      1. David M Avatar

        That is what I’m thinking. Ask Atlanta residents what they think about having a single dominant carrier. Yes, lots of options for nonstop destinations out of ATL, and that seems to be what Kirby is trying to sell. But I bet the Atlanta residents will complain about the prices that Delta charges for those nonstop flights. Having both AA and UA directly competing at ORD no doubt keeps airfares down for Chicago residents, even moreso than if it were UA dominant at ORD with just WN and MDW as serious competition.

  11. Eric R Avatar
    Eric R

    With AA losing NY, and slipping behind in Chicago, and L.A., one has to wonder about PHX.

    Certainly not the same scale as NYC/LA/CHI, but it is not as secure as DFW, CLT, DCA, or PHL due to the large WN presence. The city of PHX is on the verge of an expansion plan (west terminal) which would give access to any airline looking to make a move.

  12. Angry Bob Crandall Avatar
    Angry Bob Crandall

    American CFO Devon May disputed Kirby’s accounting, saying American’s Chicago O’Hare operation covers its direct operating costs and remains positive after including aircraft ownership and other hub-specific fixed costs, and that it may only appear unprofitable after headquarters expense and systemwide overhead are allocated to it – accounting losses that wouldn’t disappear even if American pulled out.

    American also argues competition at O’Hare is inherently good for Chicago and consumers, and points to its own growth and investment there as proof of its commitment. A JPMorgan analyst backed that skepticism, writing he does not expect American to throw in the towel in Chicago any time soon – if ever.

    So once again, Kirby is full of hot air.

    1. 1990 Avatar
      1990

      Yes, Bob. Look at how well “pulling back” worked out for American in New York and Los Angeles—once you give up that corporate share and local O&D volume, you don’t magically become more efficient. Healthy competition is good for consumers, workers, and I’d argue, even the carriers, so that they do not rest on their laurels (and, just as an example, neglect to finally open a Delta One lounge at their Atlanta fortress for years and years).

      1. PSC Avatar
        PSC

        Fun facts about ORD: #1 UA has 15% higher PRASM than AA. #2 UA has 27% more flights than AA. #3 UA also has 46% more seats than AA. #4 UA has 15% more gauge that AA. Lower CASM thanks to higher gauge + significantly higher PRASM + significantly more capacity…. One can see why UA believes AA is losing money at ORD. It’s pretty easy to back into a competitors performance using your own as a baseline. One thing for certain, UA is leaving AA in the dust.

  13. Davey Avatar
    Davey

    Kirby seems to forget who owns the airport — the City of Chicago. Given the loss of business in this city and in Illinois, does anyone think the city would sit idly by and allow United a virtual monopoly at ORD?

    It’s doubtful.

    Chicago has enough economic problems without monopolistic pricing at its largest airport. The city will do all it can to make sure this never happens, as will the State. Depending on which party controls the White House, look for the federal government to join in.

    1. Alex B. Avatar
      Alex B.

      What, exactly, would the city do if United put so much competitive pressure on AA that they decide to substantially pull back at ORD?

      I get it if you’re talking a merger, but since that’s off the table, the more likely outcome remains UA just putting AA in a vise at ORD and squeezing.

    2. abcdefg Avatar
      abcdefg

      Sounds like the city might not be able to sustain 2 hubs for long then…

    3. DL Avatar
      DL

      The problem is that Chicago knows United has bought a significant amount of land in Denver and could eventually move its headquarters there if it doesn’t get what it wants at O’Hare. I can’t wait to see the marketing gymnastics required to explain why “Chicago’s hometown airline” is suddenly Denver’s hometown airline.

      1. eolesen Avatar
        eolesen

        True, but where the headquarters is doesn’t dictate the hub stragegy.

        Plus, it’s not Chicago who will push those jobs to Denver. It’s the State of Illinois, between taxation and regulation.

  14. CJared Avatar
    CJared

    … very interesting. But should UA & Kirby care? If AA is losing money in ORD, fine, let it be if you are UA. That means fewer resources AA has to allocate when competing in other markets.
    … I like what Kirby says: don’t fly routes that lose money.
    … And I doubt the dominance of the maths regarding large hubs. Yes, UA needs more hub capacity, that I do not doubt. Large hubs must suffer from “declining marginal returns”. It just makes sense. But I don’t know where curve changes, I suspect the shape of the curve relates to capacity utilisation.
    … Keeping things status quo at ORD and building IAD seems like the better option to me (other things being equal).
    … The DC area is not the DC of the 1970s. It is a vast metropolis, not a backward swamp. I don’t think the “foreign born” statistics tell the entire story for the DC area, I suspect many foreign born are affluent, and travel globally & frequently. ORD is more “domestic”.

  15. John G Avatar
    John G

    I question whether American is losing that much money at ORD compared to UA.

    Latest load factors I could find showed both in the 83-84% range.

    From SkedGuy, next Friday (not Labor Day weekend) AA has 506 flights scheduled at ORD. 58,444 seats, average of 116 per departure.

    They have 234 mainline departures, 9 of which are widebodies, and 272 on RJs.

    UA has 647 flights (367 mainline and 280 RJ), and 13 are wb. They average 125 pax/flight.

    I just don’t see UA making money there if AA is losing a bil a year.

    Just for comparison, AA has 840 flights out of dfw that day with 113,000 seats. That’s 136 pax/flight. And DL has 795 flights out of ATL that day, with 128,000 seats. Thats 160 pax/flight.

    Scott wants those numbers for ORD. He’s just not going to get it. American can’t cede that for just that reason.

    1. PSC Avatar
      PSC

      UA has 15% higher PRASM than AA, largely driven by higher Yields they get due to being the preferred carrier in Chicago (people are choosing to fly UA even if it costs more than AA on the same routes!). Add that with the lower CASM UA has relative to AA by flying large gauge planes. That’s how UA knows AA is losing money – their profit is probably 20% higher than AAs

    2. Tim Dunn Avatar
      Tim Dunn

      John G
      thank you for sharing the data regarding actual number of flights and gauge.

      AA is simply not significantly undergauged compared to UA at ORD. UA operates so many more small RJs than AA and that class of aircraft is the least cost efficient in the US carrier fleet.

      ORD has the highest percentage of RJs of any large hub and the lowest average aircraft size – and that is precisely the problem; there are no NEO or MAX RJs in the US carrier fleet and pilot costs per passengers are much higher on RJs than on mainline aircraft.

      And all of the commentary about how much better UA gets in yield and share is for the LOCAL market.
      Both AA and UA carry significant numbers of connecting passengers via ORD and ORD is simply the most costly large hub airport and it is only going to get worse as the costs of all of this construction is passed on to airlines.
      AA has higher share than UA in most of the cities that connect over ORD; AA just happens to serve those cities via so many hubs that they can divide that traffic bewteen multiple hubs but that also gives them the ability to push traffic over ORD to keep flights viable as they fight for the local market.

      Other hubs including DTW and MSP which are on either side of ORD not only get much higher average fares for the local market but also have much lower cost per enplaned passenger. and then you have ATL and DFW which are high volume, very large hubs which are even more efficient with ATL leading the pack because of the low use of RJs which contributes to the very high gauge for a US carrier hub.

      It is because of Kirby’s repeated discussion of his perception of AA’s performance that it becomes clear how much the dual hub situation at ORD is costing UA.

  16. southbay flier Avatar
    southbay flier

    If United got O’Hare as it’s big fortress hub, with Southwest down the road at Midway, wouldn’t it be like AA at DFW or United at IAH where they have dominance over the big international airport, but Southwest is nearby at an airport closer to downtown? I don’t know how that affects fares, but it can’t be as high as AA at CLT or DL at DTW, MSP, and ATL.

    1. Steven Avatar
      Steven

      Spent 25 years living in Chicago and I’ve been living in the Dallas Love field flight path the last 4.5 years now.

      MDW isn’t really the same as ORD. Even with the numerous restrictions on DAL, MDW isn’t really the same. North and West suburbs (generally wealthier) of Chicago are more or less closer to ORD generally speaking and most business travel goes out of ORD.

      Here in DFW business travelers can use both and DAL has many direct frequent flights for Domestic travel AND is a closer airport to wealthy parts of DFW + most of the North Dallas suburbs. DAL has shorter TSA lines and more reliable commute times compared to DFW generally speaking and while MDW TSA is generally smoother, MDW is not as easy in easy out as DAL.

      Having never lived in Houston as an adult, I would think HOU is the same from what other Texans have told me but I don’t equate MDW to ORD like I do DAL to DFW. Today I split travel roughly 75 AA / 25 WN. Mostly dependent on travel times (less so price but it is a factor) despite DAL being 8 minutes from my house and a $10-15 Lyft and DFW being 25-35 minutes and a $30-45 Lyft. I have a WN CC and am a AA Plat Pro.

      I generally agree that there would be downward price pressure on a UA only hub at ORD but it would be less impactful than WN @ DAL to AA @ DFW or WN @ HOU to UA @ IAH.

      1. John G Avatar
        John G

        Speak for yourself about the commute times to Love…anyone north of the Bush is far better off heading to DFW.

        I live in Frisco and Love is at least na hour or more at rush hour, and that’s both ways.

        The growth of the metroplex is such that dfw is more convenient to a sizable majority of the area now.

        1. Steven Avatar
          Steven

          Fair enough but for folks where downtown Dallas is the destination (less so with headquarters being moved to Fisco, Plano etc) Love can be convenient.

          All that to be said, there are always exceptions but I’d said MDW is less useful than Love.

          1. Bill from DCA Avatar
            Bill from DCA

            MDW is incredibly useful for non Chicago residents. Using the Orange line, MDW is less than half the time to downtown, the loop and even Miracle Mile. Since those areas contain nearly all the hotel rooms, ipso facto, MDW is the way to go.

            Seems like most Chicagoland residents overwhelmingly prefer ORD while most Chicago visitors are much better served by MDW. Which is a fairly unique (and somewhat bizarre) dynamic.

            1. southbay flier Avatar
              southbay flier

              I wasn’t a fan of flying into and out of Midway. The airport felt like it’s crammed into a tight space. O’Hare is slightly better. The Orange Line is easier to use than the Blue Line except when it’s not in operation late at night. The Blue Line does operate 24/7.

  17. Jason Avatar
    Jason

    WN also doing 2 daily MKE-MDW not only offering Connectivity via MDW but they also offer Connectivity via MKE for Chicago passengers.
    It’s quite fun flying at 19,000 feet along the lake front on a 737.
    Now WN has dialed back MDW from its peak operations that quickly turned to TIHS during summer Thunderstorms or Winter storms.
    They originally slimmed down MDW and built up Connectivity VIA STL but that didn’t work out as planned since STL terminal is OUTDATED,inefficient and couldn’t generate enough of a profitable Mix of O&D and Connections to justify the build up.
    Now they drastically have reduce STL connections in favour of BNA that brings in a higher profitable mixture per flight.
    In addition when bad weather moves through they recover quicker at BNA than they can at MDW since it’s shares the ATC volumes with ORD so they get bogged down with ATC Volume Flow controls.
    I don’t see AA abandoning ORD anytime soon unless they get a new CEO and new vision.

    Maybe AA can invest in Gary,IN make it its new Chicago mega HUB joining the Chicago Bears in there new Home.

    1. SEAN Avatar
      SEAN

      “Maybe AA can invest in Gary,IN make it its new Chicago mega HUB joining the Chicago Bears in there new Home.”

      As long as the power stays on.

    2. CaptOZA Avatar
      CaptOZA

      @Jason

      The only terminals/concourse in STL that are outdated are:

      A, B, C & D Concourses……..E Concourse is the newest (built 1998). D Concourse opened in 1985 for then Ozark. New single terminal coming, but yep BNA has WN now

      Gary Airport? ……….NOT

  18. BK Avatar
    BK

    This is a fantastic article and lots of interesting follow-on discussion. The conclusion is valid. I don’t see AA walking away from ORD, nor do I see the DOT/DOJ allowing UA and AA to merge. One thing missing from current national-level aviation policy discussion is the cost of maintaining or growing infrastructure–hub airports are very expensive, and there is little available land that is even remotely convenient compared to current airport locations in major metro areas. Just like in the 1980s, consolidation is often primarily viewed through the lens of airfare cost to consumers. Until there is a reexamination of priorities, it’s unlikely that AA, DL, or UA will merge with another carrier. WN, viewed as an LCC, would likely get a little more consideration. Given the cost of infrastructure, our nation could benefit from having this discussion, but it’s not the kind of partisan-inspiring topic that either party is likely to touch in our current political climate.

    1. CJared Avatar
      CJared

      … it seems clear to me that another large hub is required on the East coast. 
      … IAD is perfect from both a geographic and demographic perspective. And land a plenty. 
      … I doubt IAD needs more parking. But the gate plan seems solid to me, with the first set of new gates opening this Fall. 
      … Assuming I am correct about the East coast needing another large hub, what are the alternatives to IAD? Do any have a base demography to support the hub as both a domestic and international hub? Land? Rail connection to a major city?

  19. Michael B Avatar
    Michael B

    I’m not even sure Brett’s “partially right” conclusion is valid. Absent AA in the market, what cities would UA add that would excite the local business community? There is non-stop service to almost every city the market will support. AA’s departure would just consolidate the “catchment” flights under one brand and possibly allow UA to add more banks, serving the same cities.

    Scott is definitely a dreamer and broad thinker, though often delusional. He compares merging two legacies into a flag carrier akin to those around the world. The problem is, there really is no flag carrier that would be the size of two combined legacies. Europe has large flag carriers but they serve hubs in their home countries and they compete for connecting passengers just like US carriers. Due to capacity limitations and costs at the hubs, the low cost carriers truly do fly to secondary cities. Middle East carriers use their cost advantage and government subsidies to funnel huge numbers of passengers through their hubs to serve Asia.

    The only comparison in size would be Aeroflot during the USSR days. We all know how well that worked.

    Scott really isn’t dreaming and showing vision, he’s actually showing some weakness. He’s desperate for a mega-hub and AA is in his way.

  20. PRH Avatar
    PRH

    If Scott is so worried about Chicago having too many catchment flights he can always reduce his. Heck, if I was the CEO of AA I’d be going to the press and saying the exact same thing publicly about UA. Hey UA, close your hub so we can take the airport over.

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