You may have a vague memory in the back of your head about Family Airlines. Not ringing a bell? Think back to the early 1990s. Ok, this is probably a stretch. In the early 90s, there was an attempt to start Family Airlines with low fares and family-friendly service. You might have guessed that it never got off the ground . . . yet. They’re now back 15 years later trying it once again. Only this time, the market conditions are far worse, and their plan seems much more ridiculous.
I know I usually try to focus on customer-facing issues, but I’m pretty sure we’ll never see this one get to the point where they actually get to serve customers. Instead, let me indulge myself with some of the funnier things you’ll find with these guys and their recently filed application with the DOT.
When I first heard about their resurgence last week, they had a 1995-era website with a cheesy YouTube video from a pilot saying how great they’re going to be. A day or two later, that changed, and they switched to a site created by WordPress (the free software I use for my blog). Yesterday, all you saw was this message:
We are experiencing technical difficulties with Content Management System.
We are trying to fix this issue.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Please check back soon.
Oh sweet. But now they’re back to a regular website that it slightly more professional looking. (And I do mean “slightly”) Here are some gems on there proving that they really just recycled old material from 15 years ago. How about this one from the Q&A . . .
Why start an airline today?
The timing could not be better! With the traditional “pre-deregulation” airlines about to go bankrupt and the newer ones unable to fill their vacancy (mainly due to higher operating cost and lack of capacity), the Family Airlines way is a sure success. No airline today can compete on a fare basis, in the markets proposed to be serviced by Family Airlines.
Riiiiight. It must be nice to have such blind optimism.
Maybe I should back up a little. What exactly are they trying to start? Well, take a gas-loving 747-400, cram it with 581 seats, throw in highly infrequent service in large US markets (LAX-JFK anyone?), add a dash of ultra low fares, and you have a recipe for disaster.
They’ve really done everything they could to destroy their credibility on their website. How? First, they have a big picture of their Dr Phil-look a like CEO (at left) advertising his congressional bid. And then there’s the very odd ad suggesting you click to form a Nevada corporation for $249.
So why am I even talking about these guys? It sounds like a huge joke, but as I mentioned earlier, they actually filed a lengthy 355-page application with the DOT, so they’re probably serious about this.
What other fun tidbits were in there?
- They have a very aggressive plan to be profitable by the fourth month with a very low 5.5 cent cost per seat. Good luck getting that flying a 747 on routes like Vegas to Phoenix. That’s just about impossible.
- They’re planning on a 100% load factor on every flight
- And I quote, “Although its fares are untraditional. Family believes its effect upon existing carriers should be minimal, considering all its flights are point-to-point from and to the largest metropolitan areas. These unusually low fares are expected to have a positive impact on the market by increasing the total number of passengers choosing to fly.”
Maybe they’ve forgotten that most airlines thrive on point-to-point traffic between the largest metropolitan areas. And maybe they’ve also forgotten that fares are pretty low already, so there’s not much room for stimulating the market, at least not at a profitable fare level. - Bored? Let their flight attendants entertain you. “While on board, passengers will enjoy an innovative entertainment experience brought forth by many of Family’s flight attendants who are would-be “headliners” that love the thought of entertaining others and intent on creating a pleasant flying experience for our passengers.”
- Who wants advertising? “Nearly all areas of the aircraft are available for advertising including the exterior hull, wing, tail, overhead bins, seat backs, tray tables, video screens etc., and would be available for purchase on a yearly contract. Upon de-boarding, passengers on most flights will receive an assortment of all types of promotional items as a free gift from our sponsors just for flying Family Airlines, “
Ok, you get the idea. If you’d like some good reading, I’d definitely recommend browsing the application. While you’re at it, check out coverage of the airline over at PlaneBuzz. New-contributor Godzilla (aka Frank Arciuolo), weighs in with his take, and Holly has a couple followups here and here.
36 comments on “Family Airlines – They’re Baaaack”
This might be the worst idea ever. My friends and family (that have children) don’t even like flying with children, so why woul it work for an airline? If they are really expecting 100% load factors, someone should really examine their mental stability.
Oh. My. God.
How exactly is cramming 581 people on a 747 “family-friendly”??
joke.
and check this out, in 1996 this Barry Michaels crackpot was found guilty of ‘participating in the fraudulent offering of $5m of unregistered stock’
http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr14963.txt
Hey, I remember these guys back when they pulled this scam the first time. I was working at AWA and we were in bad shape. You could be part of the airline if you chipped in 5K and were hired. I had their app and saw that it was an obvious scam.
They somehow managed to lease a derelict 747-200 and slapped on a paint scheme to look like they were legit.
I believe that they got busted for their scam, but anyone who sent them money got chumped.
Another group has tried the same thing, Backpacker Airlines, for Aussies, with the max number of seats possible for 20 somethings traveling to Europe or Phuket or OZ. And it, of course, went nowhere.
A flight with live entertainers and guaranteed screaming babies? I would pay not to fly this airline.
You want is really funny? They say their CASM will be 5.5 cents. Their fare between JFK and LAS is $69. However, their cost to transport that person is 123.47!
HOW INCREDIBLY STUPID!!!!!!!!
Oh sweet. From San Diego, they plan to go to San Jose, San Francisco and Las Vegas, all of which are served by at least two airlines already, including Southwest.
But I do like the thought of a 45 minute boarding process for a 45 minute flight. And 747s work so well on the runway at SAN.
I particularly like the fact that they’re planning to fly SAN-SJC, but apparently not SJC-SAN.
Is Captain Dan a real pilot or just a really poor marketing ploy?
After reading about the companies past and what other guys have posted I doubt this will get off the ground!
I think that everyone is missing the point of what Family Airlines is trying to do.
With the fares this airline is intending on offering, it seems to me that more people (who could not otherwise afford to travel with families) will be able to travel.
The airline appears to want to cater to mostly people with families. I think this is a terrific idea. People who don’t like dealing with children can fly the many other airlines available at the higher fares.
I am a mother of 4. Air travel is not possible most of the time because we can’t afford it. If this airline does get off the ground, we will be able to afford it because the fares are more reasonable.
If I had to choose between an airline that charges $117.00 one way from Las Vegas to Tampa and an airline that charges $69.00 one way from Las Vegas to Tampa, I know which one I would choose. I for one do not care if the plane is packed with kids. I like the idea of flight attendants who are smiling and entertaining. I don’t mind staring at some advertising. For $69.00 that airline is for me. Period.
Hey Jennifer,
Is your other personality known as Barry?
Just curious.
Hey Artie,
Are you a disgruntled airline employee working for one of those oh so successful airlines?
Just curious.
Did Donald Burr start Family Airlines?
Nancy H – I don’t believe so. He is currently involved in Pogo.
Even though family airlines will be crammed full in th 747-400 aircraft(a/c), every where you look will be advertisements, and the 747-400 is one of the least fuel efficient a/c, they may still be making the most profitable airlines this nation has ever known. They aren’t basing their income on customers purchasing a ticket, they are basing their income on advertisement. Advertisement is one of the most profitable industries in the world and many organizations will pay to put their logo where ever they can. The more people they have on the a/c, the more advertisers will pay. The cheaper the ticket, the easier it will be to fill the a/c and people want cheap transportation more than anything in our current economy.
I remember when they first tried this scam, Family Airlines did lease a 747-200 and had it painted in the supposed “Family Airlines” paint scheme (They did this just to make the airline look legit and attempt to receive DOT certification)
Would you fly on a 747-200 or 747-400 with over 550 Passengers (Most of which are screaming children?), I sure wouldn’t.
This airline is the biggest joke….EVER !
what do they mean by “Family Airlines will be the only operator of wide body Boeing 747-400’s within the United States.”
Dose’nt United and NWA use -4OO’s???
axel – I don’t think anyone knows what these guys are talking about. UA and NW do use the -400, but rarely do they use it in a domestic capacity. Maybe that’s what they meant.
they should be a bit more clear!!
there website sucks, anyways.
and the CEO running for congress. what a joke!
Hmmmmm….. so let me get this straight
Cramming a commercial airliner with as many passengers as possible plus as many ads as possible equals profits…… Why didn’t anyone else think of this (SKYBUS)(DEAD)…….
this scam is started by former pan am pilots that dream of the old days , the triangle route las tpa jfk sound familiar( old pan am national routes) flying a fuel pig for 69 dollars hahaha good luck when the plane breaks, what will they do with 500 trailer trash passengers, these guys are a joke,oh remember sky bus and their 10 dollar tickets hahahaha, what a way to fill up their pockets, trust me NOBODY in their right mine will give them startup money but then GOOD, put the trash on family air for 69 dollars with their dirty feet in flip flops , sweat dripping from their wife beater t shirts for 5 hours and flying on everybody else will be a luxury again. lets see, passengers want their smelly ass to fly on a 150 millon dollar airplane for 69 dollars coast to coast hahahahaha these are the same walmart worshipers that watched their jobs go to china in the name of CHEAP GOODS WELL MY FRIENDS AIRPLANES ARENT CHEAP AND NEITHER IS THE GAS
You think calling WalMart shoppers Trailer Park Trash was a bit mean? I wear flip flops when I am not working and relaxing by my pool or the beach here in beautiful SW Florida and I wear tanks (wife beaters as you call them) I don’t shop at WalMart because I just don’t enjoy the shopping experience. Trust me I live in a single family home work for a decent salary and find people calling people bad names is due to anger within. Good Luck Family Air! And United and NWA do use 747-400 on a few domestic routes They may have originated in an Int’l city but do fly a segmant from US-US points. You all have a good day.
Wow… I live in Las Vegas and noticed an employment ad, placed on free Craigslist of course:
——————————————–
FUTURE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS? FAMILY AIRLINES NEEDS HELP –
Reply to: familyairlines@yahoo.com [?]
Date: 2008-10-08, 12:16PM PDT
FAMILY AIRLINES NEEDS ADMINISTRATIVE HELP. THE NEW LAS VEGAS STARTUP AIRLINE WILL OFFER DEEP DISCOUNT FARES COAST TO COAST ON 747’s beginning late summer or early Fall pending DOT & FAA approval. The airline IS NOW IN THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS AND NEEDS VOLUNTEERS TO HELP COMPLETE FAA MANUALS THERE IS NO TECHNICAL EXPERIENCE NECESSARY. If you have the ability to sustain yourself without a salary until the airline receives initial funding. This might be right for you and is certainly a ground floor opportunity for the right person. To learn more please drop by 6135 S Rainbow Blvd., Suite 100 or call Sherman at 702 253-1520 or email familyairlines@yahoo.com and visit our website at: http://www.familyairlines.com
* Compensation: Full compensation upon DOT approval
————————————————-
So Basically, they are looking for someone to work for free, they have not received any funding yet, and they are probably in the process of trying to get suckers for a “private placement” stock offer for a company that is “about to go public” and will just end up ripping off some more investors. Good luck with that.
It’s worst than all of that listed above. The businesses that this guy “runs” operate on a shoestring budget with the few “employees” he has wondering if their paycheck will cash. We already have cash strapped airlines. Is the world ready for one more run by a guy that can’t balance his own checkbook?
When he “ran” for Congress (a great place for a felon), he couldn’t even fill out the position papers himself. Another good sign of a politician – he doesn’t know what to think until someone tells him what he thinks.
The company has not received a certificate and want you to blindly pay a $50 flight crew application fee. A scam to the very core, but there will enough suckers that will pay to play. Unfortunately the game wont start.
Barry Michaels is a convicted felon. He has his hands in many things and most recently he is trying to set up MiniCare medical centers where pateints do not need apts., insurance is not accepted and visits only cost $22. This is a non profit (not IRS 501 c 3) approved at this time. The idea may be good, but I would love to see the business plan on this. I don’t trust this guy. He tries to be credible, but there are generally so many holes in his business bucket. I am concerned that others will feed in to his delusions and really get burned. (I personally know a couple of people that have had negative business experiences with Mr. Michaels…….this is scary to say the least.)
This charlatan has a radio show on a business radio station . . . . .that’s right, a convicted felon that did time for fraud and has a questionable business track record is giving business advice. I contacted the Station Manager after seeing an investgative report on Barry (http://www.lasvegasnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=10371231). The Station Manager, Jim Servino of KNUU, stated “any issues with him in the past are just that: In the past. We believe that everyone has a right to start their lives over which is what he is doing.” In some ways, that is true, everyone has a right to start over . . . how about Barry’s victims . . .can Barry spell “restitution” or “remorse?” I don’t think so and neither does the State of California. Besides that fact, Mr. Servino missed the fact that Mr. Michaels is up to it again with Mini-Care. I’m still trying to figure out how a guy that is a convicted scam artist is giving business advice.
Hey guys….I am in the process of starting my own airline here in Las Vegas called: Las Vegas Express, we are going to operate the A380 and will fly from LAS to LAX, HNL, SLC, DEN, MIA, TPA and many more routes to come……..okay, bad joke but really?? The websie looks like something done on front page and is poorly made, its more or less a high school/college web project.
My question is if this airline is for real, why use a B747-400? Why not use a B737-800/900? Yeah, you will have less passengers but the RPM could be much higher and cost to operate would be alot less than the 747. You can easily place 150 on a 737-800/900 and only need 3 flight attendants and 2 pilots. I doubt you will pay $69 for a flight, throw in fee, if you check baggage, want a exit row seat and so fourth, then you are looking at over $100 each each per person…
Take a look at the DOT filing….what a joke!
Hondo – None of this makes sense, but they have the crazy idea that they could fill enormous airplanes with a ton of seats so then they can charge very little to make money. They are, of course, wrong. This is an awful plane for short haul flying and they’ll never fill it anyway. This won’t happen
Hondo and CF:
The 747 -300 and, eventually, the 747-400 DO make sense.
Until the 787, the data we have says the 747 still has the lowest cost per seat mile (especially if packed with 581 passengers!) of any airliner ever built. The 777 comes close.
Why fly 4 or 5 737s with 5 sets of pilots to pay, 5 gate fees, 5 landing fees, 5 times the risk for problems or damage or accident on each pushback, departure, and landing, when ONE flight will do all that and NOT increase the ‘crowded skies’ nor stress airport arrival quotas?
The cost to operate a single 747 is far less than a fleet of 737s to carry the same number of passengers, especially when the ground / turn-around / airport fees, etc are considered.
As for ‘never fill it anyway’ — with a Las Vegas hub, (ever see an empty seat on a flight to/from Vegas even at today’s prices?), and our CHEAP prices, think about it! At $69 from New York, we don’t think we’ll ever have an empty seat, other than a no-show. And no refunds, so the seat is sold. We could raise our prices to just under the current market, and STILL fill every seat, every flight, every day. FAI logically assumes every flight will be sold out at least 30 days before departure. All sales on line. No reservation center. No ticket sales at the airport.
I’ve answered many of these concerns on my more recent post (http://crankyflier.com/2009/08/19/family-airlines-gets-smacked-by-the-dot/), but I’ll write a couple things here.
Dan wrote:
Because that’s when people want to travel. Do you think the airlines figured that they would fly a bunch of small planes because they liked the idea? No, they tried it and found that they could get a premium by having good frequency. I understand you aren’t trying to get a fare premium at all, so this doesn’t apply, but it’s certainly a great reason to fly 4 or 5 737s around a day.
There is nothing logical about that. Airlines are successfully filling seats in Vegas but only with massive capacity cuts and incredibly low sale fares. There is no way that you’ll fill your planes 30 days in advance. I just don’t see it happening.
Dan ~
Are you for real? First off, as of August 4th, 2009 the DOT DENIED Family Airlines their application, therefore the airline is NOT going to be flying anytime soon from what I can see.
Also – Are you kidding me?? Come on – a 747-300??? What are you guys thinking?? Why not get a 767-400 or get some 757, especially if you plan to fly them over the pound with them? The 747 is a higher cost to operate period. And where do you get the idea you need to carry 5 set of crew of a 737?? I think the last time I check, you only need additional crew members for fights over 8 hours. You need to come up with a new business plan period – that is why the DOT rejected your application plus FAI finanical situration.
Dan – answer me the following questions:
Where is FAI going to get finanical back from?
Operating expernse per passenger including/excluding fuel?
What is your projected average revenue per passenger going to be?
What is your projected average revenue per flight going to be?
Do you plan to do any part 135 operations?
How do you justify flying to SAN, LAX and SFO with a 747?
Where are going getting your 747s from?
I work for an airline and I find it funny to start an airline right now, the only airline that got close was Jet America but…So again, my question is “Why now?” FAI website says the timing could not be better…really? Have you opened the paper lately? Southewest can’t even turn a profit and they are 90% fuill…Delta and Northwest had to merge because of funding…the only airline that seems to be doing any thing is Allegiant. I don’t see how you can compete in the market right now.
Hondo:
Good comments, and I see you have some knowledge of the industry. But you have some understandable confusion over the details of Family Airlines start up.
BTW, this is a very old page. Why not join the discussion on Cranky Flier’s August 19th, 2009 page? Its over one year newer and more are likely to see your comments there. Over 135 comments the last time I looked.
To reply: (Is there a way to post my replies in color or something different?)
Dan ~
Are you for real? — Uhhh… yes!
First off, as of August 4th, 2009 the DOT DENIED Family Airlines their application, therefore the airline is NOT going to be flying anytime soon from what I can see.
—- Where did you see that we were ‘denied’??? The letter from the DOT of August 4th was a request for more information, which our CEO and legal counsel supplied in vast quantity approx August 18th. We’re still in business, we’re still plugging away at that DOT certification and eventually the FAA Part 121 Air Carrier certificate.
Also – Are you kidding me?? Come on – a 747-300??? What are you guys thinking?? Why not get a 767-400 or get some 757, especially if you plan to fly them over the pound with them? The 747 is a higher cost to operate period.
—Sounds reasonable doesn’t it. But… smaller planes require more gates, more staff, more landing fees, more jetways, more customer service and ramp people.
When we take off, its a big deal… And we want to take a LOT of people on one flight and go someplace!
Economy of scale is the reason the 747 was built in the first place. But with those huge fuel tanks, most airlines find it more efficient to use them on very long haul — less wear and tear and more miles for each takeoff and landing.
We find that capacity useful in another mode — domestic flights. Yes, we’re willing to eat the cost of increased cycles on the planes. The 747 is higher cost to operate (big plane!) but… divide that by the number of seats and you’re back on par with the smaller planes — and you have only ONE landing fee, one gate, one set of 2 pilots (OK, plus FE if you have a ‘ropestart’ 747) etc.
And where do you get the idea you need to carry 5 set of crew of a 737?? I think the last time I check, you only need additional crew members for fights over 8 hours.
—- Hondo, you make me laugh. Did I say we need 5 sets of pilots on a single 737? Look again. That’s 5 sets of pilots to fly 5 planes — a simplification of approx 100 passengers per 737 plane and we plan on carrying 500+ passengers on a single 747. I.e., it would take 4 or 5 737s to do the same job. Yeah, we’re pretty stupid sometimes, but not that stupid!
You need to come up with a new business plan period – that is why the DOT rejected your application plus FAI finanical situration.
— Again, our business plan does not look like anything TRADITIONAL airlines would think of — and they’re going bankrupt right and left. They cater to a market that they hope will pay any price to fly often and when they want. We plan to cater to a market that wants CHEAP prices, and is willing to fly on one big plane, probably once a day (transcons, more often on the shorter runs), whenever it has to be scheduled. There IS a market like that. People who just don’t care when the plane flys, and are willing to accept the lack of a backup flight in the next hour, if the price is right.
— And, again, the DOT has NOT rejected our application — unless you know something we don’t!
Dan – answer me the following questions:
Where is FAI going to get finanical back from?
— From private investors, brokers, large funds (retirement funds, who knows where those money-folks find big quantities of cash!). We have a plan for a private offering of stock to qualified investors. There are strict SEC regulations on how this is handled and we have 2 lawyers and 2 accountants well experienced in this type of thing working very hard on it. Just about ready to ‘go to press’ with it this week. And yes, we do have some potential investors who have expressed sincere interest, including one potential investor who just may be willing to buy the whole package. We’re still following up on that lead. Sounds too good to be true, and probably is.
Operating expernse per passenger including/excluding fuel?
— All of that is in our PPM (Private Placement Memorandum) and business plan, especially our vast excel spreadsheet that displays every assumption, predicted costs,and predicted incomes for every flight, every month, every city pair, etc. If you are a qualified investor (able to invest $100K and not be devasted by the risk, more or less), let us know (contact on our website, http://www.familyairlines.com) and you might become an investor.
What is your projected average revenue per passenger going to be?
— I don’t know. That’s a money question for the financial department of the airline. I’m the ‘ops’ guy — my job is to get the planes from Point A to Point B. But the numbers are probably available in our PPM or business plan spreadsheet.
What is your projected average revenue per flight going to be?
— Same answer as above. In the PPM.
Do you plan to do any part 135 operations?
—- Not at this time. No charters are planned, no ‘air taxi’ service.
Also, no military charters, but I would think they might be tailor made for us with big planes capable of carrying 581 passengers — as long as they don’t want to fly to foreign lands (I guess that kind of counts us out).
We’re a domestic -only carrier. Furthest destination is Hawaii.
How do you justify flying to SAN, LAX and SFO with a 747?
— Thats the big story here. You’d have to have a deep understanding of our entire concept to comprehend that one. But basically, there are LOTS of passengers who want to fly those routes, all day every day. If our timing is even close, (and we do plan multiple flights per day on those routes), we think they’ll flock to us at our fares.
But as for ‘justify’, are you asking how do we justify the wear and tear on a 747 for those high cycles? Or do you question just being able to fill the plane on short routes?
Where are going getting your 747s from?
— We have always found used 747s on the market. Never been a total lack of supply. There were plenty of them manufactured, and even though they cut them up or convert them to freighters and the supply is decreasing, we are often contacted by brokers and dealers and airlines willing to sell us airplanes. There are plenty of web sites that will tell you where all the known used 747s are for sale. Yes, I’m evading the direct answer of where, specifically, we will obtain our airplanes, because we have a couple of primary sources, but could buy them from just about anywhere. We simply do not see this as a problem. They come and they go. If we miss a deal here, there’s another one somewhere else. Ever seen the line of 747s parked at places like Marana, AZ? Or Victorville, CA? Or Mojave, CA? Or still flying with third world or other foreign airlines that are ready to sell?
Not a problem. They’re ‘out there’. When we’re ready, we’ll snatch them up.
I work for an airline and I find it funny to start an airline right now, the only airline that got close was Jet America but…So again, my question is “Why now?”
— Well, ‘now’ was really about 6 years ago, I’m told. But it takes a long time, and with volunteer-only staff, these things take much longer than you’d expect. So… ‘now’ gets dragged out until it gets done! There will always be a need for airlines with cheap fares. Its just more difficult to get one started in economic distress times. Our work is cut out for us. Wanna come to Vegas, and volunteer to help?
FAI website says the timing could not be better…really? Have you opened the paper lately?
— Yep. That website was written maybe two or three years ago. Its sadly in need of much improvement! Can you do that for us? The pay and benefits for our “IT” department are as high as all the other departments! (no pay, no benefits).
Southewest can’t even turn a profit and they are 90% fuill…Delta and Northwest had to merge because of funding…the only airline that seems to be doing any thing is Allegiant. I don’t see how you can compete in the market right now.
— Do those airlines fly lots of planes with high per-flight costs? Do they put a lot of money into flying each plane with only 100+ passengers? Do they have to pay landing fees, gate fees, customer service fees, for 4 or 5 gates and planes when only ONE (big one) would do the same job? Do they try to fly a plane every hour, just for passenger convenience, and those planes go out with very light loads? Shame! They should copy our model and pack a big plane full, pay only one landing fee, rent only one gate, pay for 2 pilots (not 10), sell advertising all over the plane (ads on the overhead bin doors like a bus, ads on the tray table — I see USAirways is doing that now — our CEO had that idea 20 years ago!) and charge a fare that beats all the others, and yet still pays them a profit!
Compete? There will be no competiion — they can take the passengers willing to pay a high price for the convenience of a small plane every 30 minutes, and we’ll take the passengers who want to pay dirt cheap fares, and are willing to fly when we can fill up a 747!
Hondo, if you have more comments, please post them on the current blog of 19Aug2009 where all the other Family Airline ‘fans’ can read them!
Dan
Wow, Dan Quayle must be involved with this airline.
The the in-flight meal order has the option of “Potatoe Chips”!!
I remember in the early ’90s, I went to a meeting (not an interview) to see about becoming a flight attendant for Family Airlines. Through the whole meeting, they never mentioned that you had to PAY $2000 (for training, they said) to become a flight attendant. Then, I got an application, and on it, there was a question “Do you think $2000 is too much money to invest in an exciting new career in the airline industry?” My answer was “yes” so I didn’t bother to fill out the application.