And I’m back for round 3 of my across the aisle interview with JetBlue CEO Dave Barger. The express beverage service is topic number one today, but make sure to stay for the end when talk of LA to Guadalajara surfaces. (See Part 1, Part 2)

Cranky: It’s funny you talked about the beverage service. There was a lot of discussion on the blog about the express beverage service.

Dave Clark, Director of Route Planning: I forwarded your comments to our Director of Product Development [Rachel McCarthy].

Cranky: There were a lot of comments about it. For me, it was a minor thing, but I thought that was an interesting one, because people started getting passionate about it. I was just curious if that’s something that might be revisited.

Dave Clark: Rachel and I discussed this. Is it too limited? I mean, some people on the comment board said “Southwest does a full service from Oakland to Reno, 38 minutes block time. Why does JetBlue have an express service?” Rachel and her team were really enthusiastic to get that input. I think it’s something they’re going to be looking at in more detail. I think they’re worried about consistency where we’re not halfway through the cabin and then because of turbulence, the back half of the cabin gets nothing. One of the concerns is that everyone gets something. The comments, especially in your article, now they’re going to look at it. It created a good debate in our offices.

Cranky: I realize it’s not what’s keeping you up every night Dave, but still, it’s interesting.

Dave: Well, the aspect of exceeding expectations is so important, my heritage at New York Air with 146 seats on an MD80 flying from LaGuardia to Boston and DCA with a full service. So it’s not that it can’t be done, it’s can you be consistent? And what the people really want, because people are brining more and more onboard the airplane whether it’s inflight entertainment or food and beverage. But I do think that if someone’s flying from JFK to Syracuse or San Juan to Santo Domingo or Burbank to Las Vegas, the opportunity to say “hey, I’d just like to have a Presidente beer,” I’d like to be able to satisfy that.

Cranky: You talked about IFE there, wireless is something you’re happy to be a follower right now and coming out with something good and exciting soon?

Dave: We want to have a wireless application soon. By design, we were a follower. When you look at today’s offering, for the most part ground-based and the pricing is really something that’s being powered by the supplier and the branding as well. That’s something we do a little bit differently. So I think it’s been prudent for us to first of all validate, which we did through BetaBlue, the ability to use a ground-based network, because it also told us what we couldn’t do. Think about the Caribbean.

I think the ability to be a follower and to partner with some new partners in what their capabilities could be which obviously would be satellite-based, is pretty exciting. And at the same time, if we find that we have to go a traditional path for a couple years until technology is further enhanced, we’ll do that to. I think people think of JetBlue as a leader in inflight entertainment, Brett, which gives us pause too. We have 140 choices today with the TVs, with the premium entertainment, with satellite radio. We’ve had a little bit of a people understanding, but clearly people are looking for wifi especialy on the long haul. Satisfied to be a follower right now because we’d like to leapfrog what’s out there today.

Cranky: It does help when you have LiveTV already on the plane. I’m curious about LiveTV. When I flew down from Sacramento a couple weeks ago, the plane was dark, TVs weren’t working. The captain made it sound like, I don’t know if it’s an increasingly common occurrence or if it’s something that he’s just seen a lot. Have there been reliability issues? Is that something you’re focused on?

Dave: Very much so [as a focus]. Statistically, the system is very reliable. We track a metric called dark aircraft, a metric called number of seats inop by aircraft. We track even the channels if we’re having challenges with individual channels as well. The beauty of the system is that it downloads everything into our LiveTV group so we can track the wellness of the fleet. That being said, a year ago last summer, we were absolutely not pleased with what we were seeing, but we’ve seen huge improvements in the last year. It’s interesting too. What was it? I think a lot of it has to do with new equipment we were putting into the aircraft. I don’t think we’d see JD Power 6 years in a row if we had consistent problems because it’s such a hallmark of the JetBlue brand. We’re really pleased with what we’re seeing today.

Cranky: Sorry I’m kind of digging into the weeds on some of these things, but sometimes I think it’s fun to dig in to get that high level perspective on these things. . . . I think we’re out of time. I could do this all day, of course, but you have other things to do.

Dave: I appreciate the time to talk. As I shared in Phoenix, to come out here to Long Beach and see mounds of dirt and the construction . . . I’m really excited. The airport and the economic impact, and how we can continue to invest, whether it’s commuter slots or whatever it might be, doing it respectfully. Maybe Dave [Clark] can give you some more on that. So are we gonna go to Guadalajara? It’s on tape, come on.

Brett: Guadalajara?!

Dave Clark: There’s an open authority at LAX right now.

Brett: Are you looking at that?

Dave Clark: We’re looking at continuing to accelerate our growth to Latin America, including Mexico, so part of it is knowing where we can fly. It leads to the question of an FIS [customs/immigration facility] in Long Beach. We could fly to Cabo whereas at LAX we can’t.

Brett: Very interesting. Thanks guys.

And now we’re back with Part 2 of my across the aisle interview with JetBlue CEO Dave Barger. Today’s focus is on the airline’s “open architecture” which has pushed them toward the Alaska Airlines of the east – willing to partner with anyone and everyone if it’s beneficial to the airline. And I hit on snack boxes too. Had to do it, right? (See Part 1, Part 3)

Cranky: The open architecture – a lot of people seem to think that you’ll just go naturally into oneworld at some point. Is the open architecture something that prevents you from going into an alliance? Or is it just “we’ll think about it when the opportunity comes up”?

Dave: I think a good way to look at it is as the largest airline at Kennedy, largest domestic airline in New York, largest airline in Boston, locations like that. You look at Kennedy as, depending on the time of year, close to 90 airlines operating in and out. Open architecture, whether it’s oneworld, Star, Skyteam, or unaligned, that’s good for JetBlue. Because it’s the power of our network. It’s the affirmation of the brand. It’s the investment we’ve made whether it’s on the ground or in technology. I think we’ll start to understand more about traffic patterns as the result of each partnership, which gives you more data, more pixels to say, what makes sense? To declare a path into an alliance is limiting as well. I think we’re so different because the geography and power of JFK, and we’re in a really nice position to be in.

Cranky: I take that to mean that if American came knocking, saying they’d like to sponsor you into oneworld, similar to what BA has done with Air Berlin in Europe, it’s something you would consider but you don’t have enough data yet knowing how all the flows work to make a decision on something like that?

Dave: I think it’s early. But we have historically been an organization that’s always open to taking a meeting because you want to explore what makes sense, whether it’s oneworld or somebody else. Because it’s the best way to optimize our relationships and our revenues, so we’ll see what plays out. Again, it’s so early. With Sabre, that conversion was January 29, so we’re still in effect still putting in place pieces of Sabre to optimize our abilities electronically, so the next couple of years . . . the traffic patterns and behaviors are important. There’s nothing better than looking at data as a result of these partnerships to help with these decisions.

Cranky: On the American partnership, I think a lot of people were taken by surprise by it. Looking a little further, it seems to make sense. Is that something you guys had focused on or did American reach out to you? As you said, you’re open to taking a meeting.

Dave: Sure, American reached out to us but I look at it, I love the word contrarian. First of all, we’re contrarian because we’re into our second decade. If you look at the airline industry since deregulation, the number of airlines that have flown into their 2nd decade is pretty rare . . . . We’re running the company based on financial metrics, return on invested capital, cash flow. That is different. Product. We’re looking at the JD Power award six years in a row, best in class, highest score. That’s contrarian. Not overbooking, contrarian. Even more legroom, contrarian. Culture, direct relationship with our staff in a heavily organied industry, contrarian.

So you look at American and JetBlue in the interline relationship, the partnership, the slot swap, the frequent flier, why not? Because in the traditional models, I still believe that fundamentally the industry is broken. So you’ve got to do things differently. What got us here in the first 10 years won’t get us there in the next 10 years, so I’m really delighted. I’m excited about what the American partnership could mean for us. They have a very significant presence in New York. So the ability to offer our customers in 18 of our markets, Buenos Aires, Tokyo, London on an itineray and vice versa, it’s pretty significant.

Cranky: And DCA [Washington National]

Dave: That’s right. And access to DCA in exchange for slots that I imagine American can better utilize than we can. And don’t forget the additional flight into White Plains. That’s contrarian, it’s such an important word in this business.

Cranky: Ok, you want to talk contrarian, so I have to bring this up. Snack boxes.

Dave: I was just gonna say, it had to be snack boxes.

Cranky: I’ve been a vocal critic of it. You know, I came over and did the taste test. Some tasted good, but it’s nothing special. It’s similar to stuff youll find somewhere else. So it’s just kind of boring, I guess, and not what I expect form JetBlue. I expect a better experieince and the snack box doesn’t really fit into that. I’m kind of curious where you see that going. Is this something that’s, as I’ve heard others say, it’s a step?

Dave: I look at it as additive. By comparison, other airlines that are selling their snack boxes, that’s basically what the product is. . . . For us, beverage service is what it’s been for 10 years. The ability to participate in the full selection of beverages. You see that at other airlines, but I don’t think you see access to make yourself at home in the galley. I look at the unlimited snack basket. Whether it’s the traditional blue chips or other snacks. The product already is solid, so when you start to look at over 3 hours and 45 minutes enroute, especially on the transcons, I look at this as additive. Again, it’s directional.

There are some pretty interesting names to partner with to create that next iteration of the snack box. I would like people to think, Brett, your readers to think, that JetBlue is kind of a cool airline. Somebody is going to come up with that next generation, you start to talk about cobranding opportunities, that’s just cool. I think XM radio was thought of that way as well as DirecTV. We’ve been selectively a follower when it comes to the wifi brigade as opposed to really what’s happening and we’re working hard on that iteration as well. Look at the snack boxes as additive. Look at it as directional.

JetBlue CEO Dave Barger will be visiting every single airport in the system this year to celebrate the airline’s 10 year anniversary. Last week, he came through Southern California, and of course, spent a fair bit of time in Long Beach. While he was here, I had a chance to sit across the aisle from him for about half an hour. We had a wide-ranging conversation about everything from local issues (today) to American and other partnerships. Yes, I made sure to touch on snack boxes and the express beverage service as well since those have been hot topics here recently. Of course, we hit on wifi and even some nuggets about expansion in Mexico. This is part 1 of 3. Enjoy. (See Part 2, Part 3)

Cranky: Alright. We’re here in Long Beach, anything you want to say?

JetBlue CEO Dave Barger: Go Angels! How’s that? No, I think it’s really exciting to be at the airport and see construction taking place. I think to see the investment with the parking structure taking place in earnest . . . looks like we’ll be in the ground with the terminal redevelopment by the end of the year, probably two years with the phasing with that design . . . it’s exciting. Where we’re at today, we’re finally seeing the investment, plus the tarmac investment that’s been taking place, it’s exhilarating. We’ve needed it and now we can see the finish line.

Cranky: Yeah, I’m curious to see – you’re already using all your slots, when you have more terminal space are there going to be any thoughts about trying to get the Embraers in the commuter slots?

Dave: Specific to the commuter slots, we think that would add increased utility . . . looking at how best to optimize limited resources at an airport like Long Beach. What it means to the community, what it means to the vibrancy of the city and the surrounding airport. We respect the statute, the historical meaning of it . . . but the fact is that airplanes are totally different in terms of technology than when the statute was put into place. I think what’s most important is that the investment is taking place. It’s great to see concrete being poured at Long Beach.

Cranky: One thing about Southern California, we’ve heard a lot from you on the East Coast lately. Boston is growing, [Washington National (DCA)] is starting up. It’s been pretty quiet out here. Are there any plans in the future to have a west coast focus at all?

Dave: Actually, I believe there’s been pretty significant investment and focus that’s taken place in the last year. Let’s look at the video tape. Now we’re in LAX – we opened it with four flights and now we’re at six. Burbank is at four, Long Beach is at 30, so we have 40 today. A year ago we weren’t in LAX, so there’s been pretty significant investment. . . . Fact is we have 5 focus cities of which LA, the Basin, is one of those including Lauderdale, Orlando, New York, as well as Boston. Transcons appear to be doing quite well. The shorter haul flying out of Long Beach appears to be doing well. Is that the economy? Is that the competitive landscape? Is it oil? Is it the discretionary dollar? I think it’s all of the above, so we’re excited about what’s happening in the Basin.

Cranky: It’s good growth at LAX for sure, but I think from a Southern California perspective you haven’t added any new destinations FROM Southern California. Maybe frequency increases. So I think that’s more what I was talking about – increase in breadth as opposed to depth.

Dave: I think that increase in breadth includes adding frequency in a market. We’re at 30 in Long Beach, a historic high. And everything we’re doing here is 150 seats. So it’s a better use of a precious resource than a 50 seat jet. Multiple frequencies into Seattle, into Portland, into Oakland, into San Francisco, over to Las Vegas, plus the transcons, plus Austin, and Chicago. While opening more cities is something we’d like to do, we’re focused on just making the pattern of service relevant to the business traveler as well as the discretionary traveler. So I think it’s another way to look at what we’ve been doing. Our network is quite a bit different than what it looked like just a couple years ago.

Cranky: Absolutely. The long hauls have been trimmed down in favor of the short hauls in Long Beach, and then a lot of those have gone over to LAX.
Dave: Interesting because another opportunity would be a change in the commuter slots. I mean, if you only have 30 today, but you want a pattern of service that will appeal to the business traveler to Portland. . . . It’s still a finite number, so something has to give in there somewhere, and that’s why some frequencies have been relocated out of Long Beach. We respect the statute but I don’t think that drives best utility for the community.

Cranky: I’ll go back to LAX for a second. One thing LAX has that Long Beach doesn’t is international feed. You guys have been focused on the alliances, but they’ve all been East Coast so far. Can we look forward to seeing some of those opportunities where you might be feeding Asian carriers in LA?

Dave: I think it would be exciting. I mean, as I look at our second decade or part of our second decade, this open architecture, the opportunity to partner with really anybody. The Sabre investment has really allowed us to enable the relationship with El Al most recently, American, South African. Of course, we’ve been in place with Lufthansa but now to optimize it, Aer Lingus, Cape Air. I think it’s safe to say you’ll see more and more announcement regarding partnerships, and potentailly that could certainly be off the West Coast. A place like LAX or SFO, by definition that’s where it would have to take place.

Stay tuned for Part 2 and 3 later this week (unless something hugely awesome happens that postpones the rest of this).

The SkyTeam alliance got together in New York yesterday to shake hands, kiss babies, and generally feel good about things. See, they were celebrating the alliance’s ten year anniversary with a meeting in New York. While I couldn’t be there, I did get 15 minutes on the phone with Leo van Wijk, the SkyTeam Chairman. (You might remember him from his days running KLM.) Leo had a lot to say, so let’s stop dawdling. Here’s my latest Across the Aisle interview.

Cranky: One of my big questions is always, how do you measure yourself against other alliances? What do you look at to say, this is how we want to prove that we’re the best alliance out there?

Leo: There are two dimensions. One is global coverage. How many destinations can you open to your customers globally? That’s easy to measure. The second one is of course, the quality of the service, which is more difficult to compare and also not easy on an alliance basis to really get reliable feedback from the customers. We work on interviewing the customers and trying to get their feedback but it is, so far, next to impossible to compare them on an objective basis with the other alliances. You can only have the individual preferences of the customers which may be very much determined by where they live and what level of service is available by the various airlines in their hometown.

But generally speaking we recognize that SkyTeam, in terms of global coverage, the number of destinations, is lagging somewhat but not much, behind Star. They have a larger number of carriers but to some extent they’re overlapping, which is something we try to avoid. We look to only attract members where they add something to the existing network, so it’s complementary not overlapping.

Passengers carried, Star is bigger. There’s no doubt about it. In terms of quality of service, it’s extremely difficult to get a good picture. All in all, we see our position as a very clear number two, just behind Star and significantly ahead of oneworld.

Cranky: When you hear from your customers and you look at what Star is doing, what are your priorities? How are you going to become number one?

Leo: Our mission is to be the leading alliance. You become the leading alliance by offering a better level of service, consistency, and seamlessness in connections. Alliances are about connections. For every customer, generally speaking, a direct service with one carrier is preferred over a stopover or a transfer. But once that is not available, and in many cases, that is not available if you fly complex international and intercontinental itineraries, the ease of connectivity and the level of service consistency is the key differentiating factor.

While in the last decade, we have invested primarily and focused on trying to reach global coverage, now that we have achieved that to a large extent . . . I think for the next decade going forward, the competition between the alliances will be in the area of service consistency and seamlessness in connections and transfers.

Cranky: Do you have any specific projects in particular to help facilitate that?

Leo: One that’s very important but not easy to achieve in the short term is co-location at airports. . . . we’re working very hard at this point in time to have a program where we try to build co-location situations, which means all the SkyTeam airlines, or a large part, in one and the same terminal at major international airports.

From there . . . is it a home base of the one carriers, or is it an important business city? For instance, like in London where we have no home carrier in SkyTeam, we jointly operate a facility in Terminal 4, operate a joint lounge, which kind of creates the connectivity and the seamlessness that we’re looking for. So we have used the Terminal 4 London/Heathrow situation as a showcase and a template for future development.

Cranky: And what have you found with London? Is the facility working well? Is there anything you’d change?

Leo: I would say that the lounge and the new standards that we’ve introduced, we’re all very happy with. The joint check in service as a first step is quite good, but what we have not been able to achieve at this stage but we will be able to introduce at a later stage, is to have joint IT applications for check-in, E-services, etc where currently the level of development and interchangeability between SkyTeam partners is not fully at par. So that’s an area where we certainly will focus our attention to focus that further.

Cranky: Here in the US, Delta is branding its premium customers under the SkyPriority name, but that doesn’t translate to people who get benefits throughout the alliance. Is there an effort to standardize the definition of elite or from the alliance perspective do you just have to deal with what the airlines give you?

Leo: One of the complexities in operating in the different parts of the world is that the situations are not necessarily identical. So you have to allow for flexibility to adapt to the local circumstances and the competitive circumstances, but generally speaking, within SkyTeam we have aligned the various frequent flier groups and it is one of the elements for new members that is mandatory to align your frequent flier program . . . to the SkyTeam standard.

So whether you are with Air France/KLM or Vietnam Airlines as our newest member, . . . they aren’t identical . . . because of local circumstances, but the basic setup is identical throughout SkyTeam.

Cranky: You mentioned Vietnam Airlines. A lot of activity is in Asia lately – you have China Eastern coming in, Vietnam just joining, of course you already have China Southern. It would seem there is some overlap there. I know you said you’re trying to avoid that, so what is the strategy in Asia right now?

Leo: Well, between China Eastern and China Southern, there is very little overlap to be honest. China Southern has its main hub in Guangzhou, in the southern part of China whereas China Eastern has its main hub and stronghold in Shanghai. They jointly have a number two position in Beijing so collectively we will see that they have a network that covers all of China.

It is not so different as what we’ve seen in the US with . . . Delta which has a total coverage with multiple hubs in the US and Air France/KLM having a dual hub situation in Europe where KLM covers the northwest part of Europe and Air France the southwestern part of Europe and they’re highly complementary. That’s the same case in the Chinese market which is rapidly growing and geographically as big if not bigger than the US and Europe. I don’t see it as an overlap. They’re very much complementary.

Cranky: So where do you see the biggest holes in terms of coverage right now?

Leo: We did not have a partner in Southeast Asia. With Vietnam Airlines in, the region is covered very well but we can see further additions in Southeast Asia. Clearly the Indian subcontinent . . . is a market where we have not positioned ourselves yet so that’s a white spot we’re strategically focusing on. The two other areas where we feel we can improve our competitive position is in Latin America and Africa.

We have a good position with Kenya Airways in Nairobi, basically the only real hub in Africa. But we believe that with the further growth of the African market, additions to the position in SkyTeam in Africa are certainly, maybe not necessarily the highest priority, but certainly something strategically we’re looking for.

Cranky: What about Australia? I know there’s not much of a presence there yet, but with Delta and V Australia working together and a lot of talk about what Virgin Blue is about to become, is that an area that you’re keeping an eye on as well?

Leo: No, not really to be honest. It is a market that is very difficult to get access to. It is clear that the only real operator with a market position that is of interest is Qantas and they’re in oneworld, so . . . . But there are different ways to deal with access to Australia and Australian markets. So we’re looking at ways to enhance our position not necessarily by finding an Australian partner because that’s not necessarily there, but there are different ways to deal with it.

Cranky: One last question before I let you go. How important are the antitrust agreements and joint ventures to SkyTeam? Do you expect to see more of that between other carriers?

Leo: Yes. Going forward I think that where the differentiating factor is going to be the seamlessness of the service and the effectiveness of the cooperation. We have seen mergers within the different continents, Air France/KLM and Delta/Northwest, we might see more. . . . I don’t beleive that we’ll see mergers between different continents because of the complexity and the manageability of that on the one hand.

At the same time we have proven that if you can operate under antitrust immunity in joint ventures with an intense form of cooperation, [that can] provide a very good alternative. . . . that is probably the model going forward – to intensify the cooperation within the alliance between carriers on different continents rather than seeing mergers.

Cranky: Thanks very much for your time

Leo: My pleasure

And we’re back with part two of my interview. By this point, we were furiously bouncing down the 101 on our way to SFO, so I had to work hard to fit all my questions in.

Cranky: Talking about the onboard product. I saw the new seats yesterday in Business, but nothing is changing in First Class, right?
Harry: On the A340-300 it’s not changing. On the A330-300 we have a completely new redesigned first class. The reason for this on the A340 is that we did a customer survey that said, “should we do something with First Class” and customers were saying that we didn’t need to do anything. We will do some slight modifications there, but why should we reinvest in something which is not bringing real added value for the customers? Maybe in five years, we’ll learn that the next cycle of product innovation is there that we really should do something. But the product innovation from where we are now with the A340-300 is not that big.

Cranky: So there’s no concern that the product on the A330s is different than the A340s?
Harry: No

Cranky: In economy, it’s a coach seat, big screen. But what are the trends in economy? Do you need to address the product or is it just price?
Harry: Price is very much an issue and that’s why I think the trend is to have a high density economy, with 30 inch pitch and that’s it. We differentiate by having 32 to 33 inch pitch and better service.

Cranky: What about premium economy? Would you consider that?
Harry: No. I don’t think that will ever be a successful product. You have business which is high value and people are willing to pay for it and you have economy which is based on price.

Cranky: But I think we’ve seen business class go upmarket and economy go down.
Harry: Actually, we haven’t seen economy go down. It’s stayed about the same but the price has gone way down, so the value is better now. I remember when we first started offering 999 euro fares to North America and people said that was going to bankrupt us.

Cranky: Now you wish you could get that.
Harry: That’s right. [Laughs] We should all be so lucky.

Cranky: So you don’t see a gap between the two?
Harry: No. People who care about the product will pay for business class and those who care about price will pay for economy.

Cranky: What about connectivity? Are you looking at internet? I know Lufthansa is bringing back internet. Is that something you’re looking to do?
Harry: Not now. We will wait and see how it works for Lufthansa. The question is, how successful will it be? Then we will evaluate again later on.

Cranky: What about mobile phones, people making calls on airplanes?
Harry: No. Our customers have clearly told us that they do not want to hear people talking on the phone.

Cranky: Now, you used to be with Lufthansa, right?
Harry: Yes

Cranky: So how much influence does Lufthansa have on Swiss? What sort of cooperation is there and what about the cultures?
Harry: They’re actually very similar but very different. We’re a smaller company and Lufthansa is very big. For example, Lufthansa comes to us looking for rules and regulations and we don’t have them. We haven’t created them. But we do work together and that’s a good thing.

Cranky: I’d like to go back to Europe for a minute. You were at Thomas Cook, right?
Harry: Yes, that’s right.

Cranky: So what do you see for the European market? Some have said that the premium market is in structural decline in Europe. You have the low cost carriers, and you have the tour operators. It’s a very crowded place. Where do you see the Swiss European operation going?
Harry: Our European business is doing very well. We are trying to provide high value at a good price. The low cost carriers provide a low price but not high value. We provide value to our customers. So I can fly Swiss for an attractive price, which is based on the low cost structure we have, while getting the full service package.

Cranky: And what about the premium cabin?
Harry: It’s very much under pressure, so we have to rethink it. But, business class has an important value with hub connecting itineraries. You can’t fly someone in business class from San Francisco to Zurich in business class and then within Europe in coach.

Cranky: United did that when they had Ted
Harry: Maybe not a good idea
Cranky: Yeah, well it’s gone now fortunately. You could fly over the Pond in business class and then you’d have to fly coach for the 4+ hours to Las Vegas on Ted.
Harry: [Shakes his head]

Cranky: Now, you were talking about cost structure, people naturally start talking about labor. I believe you’re the only airline in Europe to not have had a strike this year, right?
Harry: I think that might be true. [Laughs]

Cranky: As you’re working to reduce your cost structure, are the employee groups helpful with you on that?
Harry: Unions are always complicated. Unions have a very simple approach and this makes it complicated. The approach of the unions is to promise more money for less work and more vacation. The thing you have to do is make them understand the situation. What we’ve been doing is saying, “this is the development of the market and this is what we have to do.” Then we have a discussion where we also get good feedback. They can find a different way to meet the same targets and that’s good. Some of the unions are a little bit stuck in the ’90s which can be a problem. But the overall relation, and this has to do with being a small entity, the overall relation between let’s say the workforce and the bosses is much closer than at a big company. This is positive.

Cranky: Looks like we’re at the airport. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me.
Harry: Thanks for your creativity of doing this on the ride to the airport.

So there you have it. I apologize that some pieces were edited down a bit, primarily the Lufthansa discussion, because bumps along the road made my recording inaudible.