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	<title>Comments on: Airlines We Lost in 2008</title>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-72857</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 07:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-72857</guid>
		<description>MJ - I don&#039;t know that there&#039;s a definitive list, so you may have to cobble them together.  You can look at sites like Wikipedia, but of course, be careful.  There are other sites as well, like this one: http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MJ &#8211; I don&#8217;t know that there&#8217;s a definitive list, so you may have to cobble them together.  You can look at sites like Wikipedia, but of course, be careful.  There are other sites as well, like this one: <a href="http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: MJ</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-72715</link>
		<dc:creator>MJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-72715</guid>
		<description>Does anyone know how many airlines went bust in 2008 alone? I need it for my coursework.
Well appreciated
Thanks
btw - great list</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone know how many airlines went bust in 2008 alone? I need it for my coursework.<br />
Well appreciated<br />
Thanks<br />
btw &#8211; great list</p>
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		<title>By: Airlines We Lost in 2008 &#124; Airport Spotting Blog</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69442</link>
		<dc:creator>Airlines We Lost in 2008 &#124; Airport Spotting Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69442</guid>
		<description>[...] http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/" rel="nofollow">http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bananamanuk</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69260</link>
		<dc:creator>Bananamanuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69260</guid>
		<description>Hi CF thanks for that, as you say there are probably many more - unfortunately - that could have been added to the list. I think you raise a really good point about Air Asia X as well, I never thought about their labour costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi CF thanks for that, as you say there are probably many more &#8211; unfortunately &#8211; that could have been added to the list. I think you raise a really good point about Air Asia X as well, I never thought about their labour costs.</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69259</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69259</guid>
		<description>Bananamanuk - I actually had LTE, Futura, and Euromanx on my list, but I decided to leave them off since they were very small and/or charter.  I could have found plenty more, I&#039;m sure.

Thanks for the very good summary on the premium airline situation in London.  While I&#039;m sure that AA&#039;s entrance and subsequent exit hurt the little guys, I don&#039;t think they would have survived even without AA ever entering.  Fuel was ultimately what did them in.  I mean, the cost of sending a 757 with 48 seats across the Atlantic skyrocketed with high fuel.  Of course, it&#039;s hard to say if they would have made it even with lower fuel prices.

Oh, and about Air Asia X.  Besides the tremendous feed opportunity from the Air Asia network, they have one more thing going for them.  Labor costs are nonexistent because wages are so low in that part of the world.  That can help profitability a lot.

PJNelsen - Yep, Primaris was another one I left off the list.  They were so small and only did charter.  Their grand plans for flying passenger 787s in premium configurations never even got close to happening, and they ended up being just a lot more talk than anything.  That&#039;s why I left them off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bananamanuk &#8211; I actually had LTE, Futura, and Euromanx on my list, but I decided to leave them off since they were very small and/or charter.  I could have found plenty more, I&#8217;m sure.</p>
<p>Thanks for the very good summary on the premium airline situation in London.  While I&#8217;m sure that AA&#8217;s entrance and subsequent exit hurt the little guys, I don&#8217;t think they would have survived even without AA ever entering.  Fuel was ultimately what did them in.  I mean, the cost of sending a 757 with 48 seats across the Atlantic skyrocketed with high fuel.  Of course, it&#8217;s hard to say if they would have made it even with lower fuel prices.</p>
<p>Oh, and about Air Asia X.  Besides the tremendous feed opportunity from the Air Asia network, they have one more thing going for them.  Labor costs are nonexistent because wages are so low in that part of the world.  That can help profitability a lot.</p>
<p>PJNelsen &#8211; Yep, Primaris was another one I left off the list.  They were so small and only did charter.  Their grand plans for flying passenger 787s in premium configurations never even got close to happening, and they ended up being just a lot more talk than anything.  That&#8217;s why I left them off.</p>
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		<title>By: PJNelsen</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69250</link>
		<dc:creator>PJNelsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Jan 2009 06:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69250</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t see Primaris Airlines on this list.  Unfortunately for them, they ceased operations in early December 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t see Primaris Airlines on this list.  Unfortunately for them, they ceased operations in early December 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Bananamanuk</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69243</link>
		<dc:creator>Bananamanuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69243</guid>
		<description>Hi, I just came across this site and have to say, well done on your list. I thought this sort of information would be widely available, but I&#039;ve not seen anything as comprehensive and well presented as this. I also like your personal take on each concerned.

I know you say this isn&#039;t a full list but a couple of other european airlines that failed this year are LTE (Spanish charter) Futura (Spanish charter) Futura Gael (Irish/Spanish parent charter) and Euromanx (Isle of Man regional).

The other thing I&#039;d like to say is regarding EOS &amp; SilverJet. EOS, based at Stansted airport in London was a top end carrier as you likely know working with its founder. It offered a first class service at business rates, but it, like MaxJet (more of a step above premium economy, but not quite business!?) not only had the problems of credit and fuel prices but also of American Airlines. AA decided to launch on the same JFK-STN routing, OK it offered economy class, but I strongly believe it was only servicing it&#039;s pre-existing route authorities to kill both carriers. Job done it quit the airport. I do believe that there was a niche for both airlines, perhaps EOS moreso, but perhaps not from STN.

SilverJet had what EOS never had - it&#039;s own terminal, which in some ways made it&#039;s offering even more first class, even though it was positioned as below EOS but above MaxJet in it&#039;s offering!! SilverJet appeared to have a fairly promising start, but like all things, it takes time, I think they had an awful lot of capital expense to start with, partly offset by use of Newark and Luton. But the arrival of AA down the road (with it&#039;s Frequent Flyer program and route network) didn&#039;t help it, nor the fact that MaxJet &amp; EOS pipped it to the post in commencing ops. Of course neither then did the negativity surrounding MaxJet and EOS&#039;s failures. The spotlight was on SilverJet and it doesn&#039;t matter how good a company is, once the media and negativity takes hold, the bookings dry up and bang. 

I&#039;m not an expert, but an enthusiast, and I like the idea of the small guy&#039;s having a go. I like competition too, but where it&#039;s fair. Short term greed doesn&#039;t work well either, I look at Stansted airport now, which has gone from 3 to 0 transatlantic services - once again. It will be interesting how Air Asia X fares - the main difference there is it&#039;s pre-existing internal asian route networks making it attractive for connections... I think Richard Branson&#039;s hand&#039;s in there somewhere too.

Once again, thanks for a great summary - sorry to ramble!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I just came across this site and have to say, well done on your list. I thought this sort of information would be widely available, but I&#8217;ve not seen anything as comprehensive and well presented as this. I also like your personal take on each concerned.</p>
<p>I know you say this isn&#8217;t a full list but a couple of other european airlines that failed this year are LTE (Spanish charter) Futura (Spanish charter) Futura Gael (Irish/Spanish parent charter) and Euromanx (Isle of Man regional).</p>
<p>The other thing I&#8217;d like to say is regarding EOS &amp; SilverJet. EOS, based at Stansted airport in London was a top end carrier as you likely know working with its founder. It offered a first class service at business rates, but it, like MaxJet (more of a step above premium economy, but not quite business!?) not only had the problems of credit and fuel prices but also of American Airlines. AA decided to launch on the same JFK-STN routing, OK it offered economy class, but I strongly believe it was only servicing it&#8217;s pre-existing route authorities to kill both carriers. Job done it quit the airport. I do believe that there was a niche for both airlines, perhaps EOS moreso, but perhaps not from STN.</p>
<p>SilverJet had what EOS never had &#8211; it&#8217;s own terminal, which in some ways made it&#8217;s offering even more first class, even though it was positioned as below EOS but above MaxJet in it&#8217;s offering!! SilverJet appeared to have a fairly promising start, but like all things, it takes time, I think they had an awful lot of capital expense to start with, partly offset by use of Newark and Luton. But the arrival of AA down the road (with it&#8217;s Frequent Flyer program and route network) didn&#8217;t help it, nor the fact that MaxJet &amp; EOS pipped it to the post in commencing ops. Of course neither then did the negativity surrounding MaxJet and EOS&#8217;s failures. The spotlight was on SilverJet and it doesn&#8217;t matter how good a company is, once the media and negativity takes hold, the bookings dry up and bang. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not an expert, but an enthusiast, and I like the idea of the small guy&#8217;s having a go. I like competition too, but where it&#8217;s fair. Short term greed doesn&#8217;t work well either, I look at Stansted airport now, which has gone from 3 to 0 transatlantic services &#8211; once again. It will be interesting how Air Asia X fares &#8211; the main difference there is it&#8217;s pre-existing internal asian route networks making it attractive for connections&#8230; I think Richard Branson&#8217;s hand&#8217;s in there somewhere too.</p>
<p>Once again, thanks for a great summary &#8211; sorry to ramble!</p>
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		<title>By: PF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69231</link>
		<dc:creator>PF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69231</guid>
		<description>re: Skybus - 
It&#039;s not difficult to get high load factors if the fare is low enough.   The trick is to do it and make money.
Happy New Year -</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Skybus &#8211;<br />
It&#8217;s not difficult to get high load factors if the fare is low enough.   The trick is to do it and make money.<br />
Happy New Year -</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69211</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69211</guid>
		<description>Benji - I&#039;m not a big prognosticator these days.  Things change so quickly in this industry that it&#039;s hardly worth it.  Probably the only safe bet is that Alitalia will continue to exist!  Of the three you mentioned, Air One is the one I&#039;d bet will disappear first.  Why?  Because it&#039;s scheduled to happen on Jan 13 when it emerges with the new Alitalia!  OpenSkies is a tough one, because it&#039;s really at the whim of BA.  It isn&#039;t big enough on the whole to know if BA sees a reason to keep it, even if it isn&#039;t doing well.  And as for Virgin America, it all depends upon what tricks Branson has up his sleeve.  I cannot understand why anyone would want to continue to invest in that airline, but it keeps happening.  It will be interesting to see what happens with them in the next year.

L - I can&#039;t believe I left KrasAir out.  That was certainly one I should have mentioned.  Thank you for adding to the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benji &#8211; I&#8217;m not a big prognosticator these days.  Things change so quickly in this industry that it&#8217;s hardly worth it.  Probably the only safe bet is that Alitalia will continue to exist!  Of the three you mentioned, Air One is the one I&#8217;d bet will disappear first.  Why?  Because it&#8217;s scheduled to happen on Jan 13 when it emerges with the new Alitalia!  OpenSkies is a tough one, because it&#8217;s really at the whim of BA.  It isn&#8217;t big enough on the whole to know if BA sees a reason to keep it, even if it isn&#8217;t doing well.  And as for Virgin America, it all depends upon what tricks Branson has up his sleeve.  I cannot understand why anyone would want to continue to invest in that airline, but it keeps happening.  It will be interesting to see what happens with them in the next year.</p>
<p>L &#8211; I can&#8217;t believe I left KrasAir out.  That was certainly one I should have mentioned.  Thank you for adding to the list.</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/12/31/airlines-we-lost-in-2008/comment-page-1/#comment-69210</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=893#comment-69210</guid>
		<description>Marla - No reason to apologize at all.  This is a great discussion, and it made me go back to the files to pull up some numbers.  I pulled down the government data for May 2007, when they started, through February 2008.  It appears that they never reported beyond February, because they had probably shut down by the time those reports were due.  So, we&#039;ll go with that info.  I put my &lt;a href=&quot;http://crankyflier.com/files/sxseatfactor.xls&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;spreadsheet up on the site&lt;/a&gt; if you&#039;d like to see details.

Skybus never achieved a 90% seat factor on a route in any one month.  Strangely enough, the highest load factor was 86.5% on Columbus - Bellingham in August 2007.  In 2008, no Columbus route ever went above 75%.  Let&#039;s look more closely at Florida, as you mentioned.

Columbus - Ft Lauderdale reached 83.3% in June 2007, its first full month of operation, but after that they doubled capacity and it settled in the high 60s to mid 70s.

Columbus - Punta Gorda didn&#039;t start until December 2007, but it did reach 76.5% that month.  It dropped for the next couple months until reporting stopped.

Columbus - St Augustine was different.  It started in the 70s before peaking at 82.4% in November 2007 at which point they doubled capacity and seat factor plunged as low as 55% in February.

I have no doubt that they made some very bad route choices here (Milwaukee? ouch), and I also firmly believe that there are some routes that can support an operation like this.  But I don&#039;t see a successful outcome for an airline that&#039;s based in Columbus and expects to build a large scale operation there.  

My argument is precisely that there aren&#039;t enough people in Columbus or visiting Columbus (no need to distinguish between the two, because they both fill planes) to profitably support much more air service than is already there.  Now that fuel has come down, some more marginal flights may come back, but the economic downturn makes bolder moves highly questionable.  

Might Delta bring back LAX to Columbus again?  Sure, I could see that.  But I don&#039;t see much beyond a flight or two.  In fact, I would expect to see a little shrinkage as Delta/Northwest rationalizes its network.  Some of those Cincinnati and Memphis flights go easily go away, and that&#039;s something we&#039;ll see all over the US.

Happy New Year to you as well, and I hope that you&#039;ll keep reading and contribute more.  If you read, you&#039;ll see that I&#039;m not one of those people moaning about fees in general.  In some cases and particularly for some airlines, I think they make a lot of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marla &#8211; No reason to apologize at all.  This is a great discussion, and it made me go back to the files to pull up some numbers.  I pulled down the government data for May 2007, when they started, through February 2008.  It appears that they never reported beyond February, because they had probably shut down by the time those reports were due.  So, we&#8217;ll go with that info.  I put my <a href="http://crankyflier.com/files/sxseatfactor.xls" rel="nofollow">spreadsheet up on the site</a> if you&#8217;d like to see details.</p>
<p>Skybus never achieved a 90% seat factor on a route in any one month.  Strangely enough, the highest load factor was 86.5% on Columbus &#8211; Bellingham in August 2007.  In 2008, no Columbus route ever went above 75%.  Let&#8217;s look more closely at Florida, as you mentioned.</p>
<p>Columbus &#8211; Ft Lauderdale reached 83.3% in June 2007, its first full month of operation, but after that they doubled capacity and it settled in the high 60s to mid 70s.</p>
<p>Columbus &#8211; Punta Gorda didn&#8217;t start until December 2007, but it did reach 76.5% that month.  It dropped for the next couple months until reporting stopped.</p>
<p>Columbus &#8211; St Augustine was different.  It started in the 70s before peaking at 82.4% in November 2007 at which point they doubled capacity and seat factor plunged as low as 55% in February.</p>
<p>I have no doubt that they made some very bad route choices here (Milwaukee? ouch), and I also firmly believe that there are some routes that can support an operation like this.  But I don&#8217;t see a successful outcome for an airline that&#8217;s based in Columbus and expects to build a large scale operation there.  </p>
<p>My argument is precisely that there aren&#8217;t enough people in Columbus or visiting Columbus (no need to distinguish between the two, because they both fill planes) to profitably support much more air service than is already there.  Now that fuel has come down, some more marginal flights may come back, but the economic downturn makes bolder moves highly questionable.  </p>
<p>Might Delta bring back LAX to Columbus again?  Sure, I could see that.  But I don&#8217;t see much beyond a flight or two.  In fact, I would expect to see a little shrinkage as Delta/Northwest rationalizes its network.  Some of those Cincinnati and Memphis flights go easily go away, and that&#8217;s something we&#8217;ll see all over the US.</p>
<p>Happy New Year to you as well, and I hope that you&#8217;ll keep reading and contribute more.  If you read, you&#8217;ll see that I&#8217;m not one of those people moaning about fees in general.  In some cases and particularly for some airlines, I think they make a lot of sense.</p>
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