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	<title>Comments on: Spanair Aircraft Did Not Have Flaps Deployed; Not Necessarily the Cause of the Accident</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/</link>
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		<title>By: Steveee</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64928</link>
		<dc:creator>Steveee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64928</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the information Old pilot. Distraction seems to play a part in tragic situations like this. I remember reading many years ago about the cockpit recording that when the pilots were going through the take off check list, one pilot said &quot;flaps&quot; there was no answer from the other pilot.
The plane then crashed on take off.

The Metroliner train engineer was texting when he went through the red stop signal and ran into the freight train at 42 MPH. Never even hit the brakes.

Both cases seemed to involve distraction with tragic results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the information Old pilot. Distraction seems to play a part in tragic situations like this. I remember reading many years ago about the cockpit recording that when the pilots were going through the take off check list, one pilot said &#8220;flaps&#8221; there was no answer from the other pilot.<br />
The plane then crashed on take off.</p>
<p>The Metroliner train engineer was texting when he went through the red stop signal and ran into the freight train at 42 MPH. Never even hit the brakes.</p>
<p>Both cases seemed to involve distraction with tragic results.</p>
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		<title>By: Old Pilot</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64906</link>
		<dc:creator>Old Pilot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 13:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64906</guid>
		<description>The high aspect ratio wing of the MD-80 requires flap and slat extension for takeoff. Theoretically, you could probably get it off the ground without them given a ridiculously long runway, but the speeds required would be in excess of the max. allowable tire speeds. 

We must be careful not to attribute the crash to the failure of the warning system. It is still the responsibility of the crew to determine that the configuration is correct for the take off conditions. While we still don&#039;t know the cause, we can say that many accidents like this have occurred due to interrupted sequences of events. This  crew aborted one take off, returned for maintenance, then departed again. The real questions will be, did the flap/slat actuation system fail, did the cockpit indicator of flap and slat positions fail to read correctly, or did the crew fail to select the appropriate settings?

The videos published seem to indicate that the aircraft rotated and flew in ground effect - the effect that occurs withing approximately one half wing span of the ground which alters the airflow and reduces the angle of attack, allowing the aircraft to fly. Climbing out of ground effect is impossible with the incorrect settings, and the aircraft stalls and settles to the ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The high aspect ratio wing of the MD-80 requires flap and slat extension for takeoff. Theoretically, you could probably get it off the ground without them given a ridiculously long runway, but the speeds required would be in excess of the max. allowable tire speeds. </p>
<p>We must be careful not to attribute the crash to the failure of the warning system. It is still the responsibility of the crew to determine that the configuration is correct for the take off conditions. While we still don&#8217;t know the cause, we can say that many accidents like this have occurred due to interrupted sequences of events. This  crew aborted one take off, returned for maintenance, then departed again. The real questions will be, did the flap/slat actuation system fail, did the cockpit indicator of flap and slat positions fail to read correctly, or did the crew fail to select the appropriate settings?</p>
<p>The videos published seem to indicate that the aircraft rotated and flew in ground effect &#8211; the effect that occurs withing approximately one half wing span of the ground which alters the airflow and reduces the angle of attack, allowing the aircraft to fly. Climbing out of ground effect is impossible with the incorrect settings, and the aircraft stalls and settles to the ground.</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64312</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64312</guid>
		<description>David - Thanks for the clarification here.  I&#039;m not sure that we&#039;re necessarily disagreeing.  The title of the post is parroting the initial report from the investigators which says that they are not yet ready to say that the lack of flaps caused the crash.  So that&#039;s why I wrote it that way.  As I said in the body of the post, if you can get a &quot;really long runway&quot; then you could get airborne, but that&#039;s where I left it.

Now, where my knowledge ends is how long that runway would need to be at the temperature we saw in Madrid that day with the load onboard.  Assuming what you say is true (I have absolutely no reason to doubt it), then it seems like the investigators should find it easy to determine the ultimate cause of the accident.  Any idea why they&#039;d hold back on that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; Thanks for the clarification here.  I&#8217;m not sure that we&#8217;re necessarily disagreeing.  The title of the post is parroting the initial report from the investigators which says that they are not yet ready to say that the lack of flaps caused the crash.  So that&#8217;s why I wrote it that way.  As I said in the body of the post, if you can get a &#8220;really long runway&#8221; then you could get airborne, but that&#8217;s where I left it.</p>
<p>Now, where my knowledge ends is how long that runway would need to be at the temperature we saw in Madrid that day with the load onboard.  Assuming what you say is true (I have absolutely no reason to doubt it), then it seems like the investigators should find it easy to determine the ultimate cause of the accident.  Any idea why they&#8217;d hold back on that?</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64309</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64309</guid>
		<description>Cranky old fellow, so sorry to disagree with you on this one. You are normally right on the money, but not this post. A normal load MD-80 on a normal runway (such as Barajas) that reaches V-1 with no flaps deployed equals a crash. Its a simple as that. Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cranky old fellow, so sorry to disagree with you on this one. You are normally right on the money, but not this post. A normal load MD-80 on a normal runway (such as Barajas) that reaches V-1 with no flaps deployed equals a crash. Its a simple as that. Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jf</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64307</link>
		<dc:creator>Jf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64307</guid>
		<description>flap warnings can also be disabled intentionally, as i believe was the case in the detroit crash. it was typically done when taxiing out on one engine so that the combination of high power setting and no flaps (trigger for warning) would not fill the cockpit with noise. you&#039;ll notice that nowadays, in the US anyway, flaps are always set to takeoff position prior to taxi out except in extreme weather conditions such as heavy snow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>flap warnings can also be disabled intentionally, as i believe was the case in the detroit crash. it was typically done when taxiing out on one engine so that the combination of high power setting and no flaps (trigger for warning) would not fill the cockpit with noise. you&#8217;ll notice that nowadays, in the US anyway, flaps are always set to takeoff position prior to taxi out except in extreme weather conditions such as heavy snow.</p>
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		<title>By: Steveee</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64294</link>
		<dc:creator>Steveee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64294</guid>
		<description>I think the loading is a factor also as I was reading that different planes have different flap settings for take off. Some more flap, some less. It was a fatal error, just like the Metro engineer that ran a stop light and ran into the freight train, a fatal error. In both cases they know what happened, but why may never be known. In both cases of course, really sad and a waste of life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the loading is a factor also as I was reading that different planes have different flap settings for take off. Some more flap, some less. It was a fatal error, just like the Metro engineer that ran a stop light and ran into the freight train, a fatal error. In both cases they know what happened, but why may never be known. In both cases of course, really sad and a waste of life.</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64279</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:39:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64279</guid>
		<description>TR - I&#039;m not sure if that&#039;s true.  Anyone here have more knowledge on the subject?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TR &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure if that&#8217;s true.  Anyone here have more knowledge on the subject?</p>
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		<title>By: TR</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64276</link>
		<dc:creator>TR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64276</guid>
		<description>It sounds like this plane model has less room for error given the size of the wings, engine power and plane weight characteristics.  Interested layman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds like this plane model has less room for error given the size of the wings, engine power and plane weight characteristics.  Interested layman.</p>
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		<title>By: sntheorist</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/09/17/spanair-aircraft-did-not-have-flaps-deployed-not-necessarily-the-cause-of-the-accident/comment-page-1/#comment-64274</link>
		<dc:creator>sntheorist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1243#comment-64274</guid>
		<description>So, as far as I know, the Spanair MD-80 that crashed was heavily loaded (i.e., all seats were taken + luggage etc.) + it was for sure a hot day in Madrid, so no flaps could certainly be an important factor in the crash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, as far as I know, the Spanair MD-80 that crashed was heavily loaded (i.e., all seats were taken + luggage etc.) + it was for sure a hot day in Madrid, so no flaps could certainly be an important factor in the crash.</p>
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