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	<title>Comments on: United Considers Charging for Meals Internationally, Drinks as Well</title>
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		<title>By: United&#8217;s Further Cuts in Service at Dan Webb</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-61714</link>
		<dc:creator>United&#8217;s Further Cuts in Service at Dan Webb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-61714</guid>
		<description>[...] booked in economy. This is what was rumored around a bit a couple weeks back when United started sending out surveys. At least they&#8217;re not cutting free meals for the Asian flights though. The memo does [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] booked in economy. This is what was rumored around a bit a couple weeks back when United started sending out surveys. At least they&#8217;re not cutting free meals for the Asian flights though. The memo does [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Traveling Optimist</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60607</link>
		<dc:creator>The Traveling Optimist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60607</guid>
		<description>Jim Sack, to Asians, service is extremely cultural.  To Europeans, it is highly professional (and in Britain, just plain good manners).  To US based airlines, service now is largely contractual.  Entire articles have been written about the tradition of service in Europe and the actual culture of service in Asia versus the very American &quot;Every man for himself&quot; mythos dating back to the founding of the country.  

Waiting tables in many European countries is a life long profession, even an aspiration in some circles.  Pixar based a film around the art of cooking, where the art of serving is taken just as seriously.  Would you sit down to a Michelin meal with a gum-snapping high-school Valley Girl serving your table?  Would you take a tattoo-emblazened, blue-highlighted college &quot;independent&quot; seriously as your sommelier?  Doubtful.  You want a chef who knows what he or she is doing and a waiter who knows what he or she is talking about, to the point of everything except preparing the meal itself.  

That base follows its brethren up in to the skies of European flag carriers.  US airlines, in the face of cutbacks, hammer the message home with their onboard announcements - &quot;Our primary concern is your safety.&quot;  Read: This is an airplane, not Nana (top end restaurant in Dallas).  Unlike what American carriers have come to, the European flag carriers are holding on to the notion that transportation remains a service, in all its aspects, instead of the other way around where the service is nothing more than flying from A to B.  The guys in Europe get their fair share of hate mail, have no fear, but ask British Airways where you luggage is, not so much whether the food is good.

The Asian carriers, quite simply, rely on thousands of years of class culture and contemporary mysogonistic views towards women.  Even one commenter in here remarked about the &quot;sexy girls&quot; on Singapore Airlines.  That&#039;s because they&#039;re not allowed to fly past the age of 30 and must resign before that if they marry or become pregnant.  With such young ages, low salaries and elaborate on board services, Singapore can afford from two to four more staff in the air than most other carriers.  Ironically, it&#039;s not too far from a fair trade.  Singapore is obviously an island unto itself - the ladies get to see the world before settling down and, short of marrying well, probably rarely leaving their island country again.

Thailand is a huge country that tends to treat its women better than most.  Even so, outside of Bangkok and the beach, not much is happening in the sleepy agrarian hinterlands compared to weekends in LA, London or Sydney.

History of the US Flight Attendant (Female):  First you had to be a certified nurse in case of emergencies.  Then you had to be and remain young, single, slim and sexy.  &quot;Stewardess&quot; schools taught make-up and poise almost as much as they trained in emergency procedures and service with a smile.  Back then each lady was right out of Mamie Eisenhower/June Cleaver - heels, pearls and nail polish.  Through the years each of these requisites were negotiated out of collective bargaining agreements such that now, &quot;Our Primary Concern is Your Safety!&quot;  That and a pair of crocs.

There remain THOUSANDS of US flight attendants who can and do hold their own against their European and Asian counterparts each and every time they take to the air.  They literally set the standard for casual professionalism, wearing the uniform with pride, keeping in shape as best as possible and knowing when to make a &quot;touch&quot; without being obsequious or perfunctory.

Some Americans feel out of place in the formality of high end European service.  Too many rules, utensils and protocols to follow.  Where the Singapore MAN expects to be fawned over from takeoff to landing, some Americans give even Singapore Airlines mixed reviews because the service was too &quot;busy,&quot; &quot;fussy&quot; or just plain underfoot in their nonstop effort to serve and please.  This is the gift of GOOD American flight attendants.  They can make you feel as if you&#039;re in their private home without being uncomfortable for staying too long.  Sadly there aren&#039;t enough of their ranks left and their labor contracts have taken care of the rest.

There, in summary, is the difference, Mr. Sack.  Asian carriers attitudes towards their onboard staff is right out of the 1960&#039;s, backed by thousands of years of cultural deference towards honored and high-powered guests.  With the heat of competition as airlines AND countries packed so close together, along with an equally long tradition of providing a high quality service to a visitor, the Europeans consider it no less than natural to serve gladly and proudly.  The Americans?  If it&#039;s called for in their labor agreement and you&#039;ve paid the fee, you will receive a service.  If they&#039;re having a good day or it&#039;s in their nature as a human being, you may also receive a smile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Sack, to Asians, service is extremely cultural.  To Europeans, it is highly professional (and in Britain, just plain good manners).  To US based airlines, service now is largely contractual.  Entire articles have been written about the tradition of service in Europe and the actual culture of service in Asia versus the very American &#8220;Every man for himself&#8221; mythos dating back to the founding of the country.  </p>
<p>Waiting tables in many European countries is a life long profession, even an aspiration in some circles.  Pixar based a film around the art of cooking, where the art of serving is taken just as seriously.  Would you sit down to a Michelin meal with a gum-snapping high-school Valley Girl serving your table?  Would you take a tattoo-emblazened, blue-highlighted college &#8220;independent&#8221; seriously as your sommelier?  Doubtful.  You want a chef who knows what he or she is doing and a waiter who knows what he or she is talking about, to the point of everything except preparing the meal itself.  </p>
<p>That base follows its brethren up in to the skies of European flag carriers.  US airlines, in the face of cutbacks, hammer the message home with their onboard announcements &#8211; &#8220;Our primary concern is your safety.&#8221;  Read: This is an airplane, not Nana (top end restaurant in Dallas).  Unlike what American carriers have come to, the European flag carriers are holding on to the notion that transportation remains a service, in all its aspects, instead of the other way around where the service is nothing more than flying from A to B.  The guys in Europe get their fair share of hate mail, have no fear, but ask British Airways where you luggage is, not so much whether the food is good.</p>
<p>The Asian carriers, quite simply, rely on thousands of years of class culture and contemporary mysogonistic views towards women.  Even one commenter in here remarked about the &#8220;sexy girls&#8221; on Singapore Airlines.  That&#8217;s because they&#8217;re not allowed to fly past the age of 30 and must resign before that if they marry or become pregnant.  With such young ages, low salaries and elaborate on board services, Singapore can afford from two to four more staff in the air than most other carriers.  Ironically, it&#8217;s not too far from a fair trade.  Singapore is obviously an island unto itself &#8211; the ladies get to see the world before settling down and, short of marrying well, probably rarely leaving their island country again.</p>
<p>Thailand is a huge country that tends to treat its women better than most.  Even so, outside of Bangkok and the beach, not much is happening in the sleepy agrarian hinterlands compared to weekends in LA, London or Sydney.</p>
<p>History of the US Flight Attendant (Female):  First you had to be a certified nurse in case of emergencies.  Then you had to be and remain young, single, slim and sexy.  &#8220;Stewardess&#8221; schools taught make-up and poise almost as much as they trained in emergency procedures and service with a smile.  Back then each lady was right out of Mamie Eisenhower/June Cleaver &#8211; heels, pearls and nail polish.  Through the years each of these requisites were negotiated out of collective bargaining agreements such that now, &#8220;Our Primary Concern is Your Safety!&#8221;  That and a pair of crocs.</p>
<p>There remain THOUSANDS of US flight attendants who can and do hold their own against their European and Asian counterparts each and every time they take to the air.  They literally set the standard for casual professionalism, wearing the uniform with pride, keeping in shape as best as possible and knowing when to make a &#8220;touch&#8221; without being obsequious or perfunctory.</p>
<p>Some Americans feel out of place in the formality of high end European service.  Too many rules, utensils and protocols to follow.  Where the Singapore MAN expects to be fawned over from takeoff to landing, some Americans give even Singapore Airlines mixed reviews because the service was too &#8220;busy,&#8221; &#8220;fussy&#8221; or just plain underfoot in their nonstop effort to serve and please.  This is the gift of GOOD American flight attendants.  They can make you feel as if you&#8217;re in their private home without being uncomfortable for staying too long.  Sadly there aren&#8217;t enough of their ranks left and their labor contracts have taken care of the rest.</p>
<p>There, in summary, is the difference, Mr. Sack.  Asian carriers attitudes towards their onboard staff is right out of the 1960&#8242;s, backed by thousands of years of cultural deference towards honored and high-powered guests.  With the heat of competition as airlines AND countries packed so close together, along with an equally long tradition of providing a high quality service to a visitor, the Europeans consider it no less than natural to serve gladly and proudly.  The Americans?  If it&#8217;s called for in their labor agreement and you&#8217;ve paid the fee, you will receive a service.  If they&#8217;re having a good day or it&#8217;s in their nature as a human being, you may also receive a smile.</p>
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		<title>By: Back in Seattle, bruised but unbowed » Geoff Arnold</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60590</link>
		<dc:creator>Back in Seattle, bruised but unbowed » Geoff Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60590</guid>
		<description>[...] soft and alcoholic drinks during the 9+ hour flight from FRA to SEA. This at the same time that United is reportedly exploring the possibility of charging for food on intercontinental flights. (They already charge for alcoholic beverages in economy.) If they do [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] soft and alcoholic drinks during the 9+ hour flight from FRA to SEA. This at the same time that United is reportedly exploring the possibility of charging for food on intercontinental flights. (They already charge for alcoholic beverages in economy.) If they do [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Arnold</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60586</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60586</guid>
		<description>I just landed at SEA after traveling 24 hours from MAA via FRA on Lufthansa. First leg was in business, second in coach. Each leg we had two hot meals, unlimited drinks (alcoholic and soft), and little touches like complimentary gourmet chocolates. In both classes.

Now, each of these flights was also sold as a UA code-share. If United goes down this nickel-and-dime path, the differences between the quality of the UA and LH products will become even wider than it is today, and this is going to make code-sharing problematic. If you were LH, would you want an LH customer purchasing an LH ticket to get such an inferior product?

Alliances and code-shares only work if the participants&#039; products are comparable in quality and value.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just landed at SEA after traveling 24 hours from MAA via FRA on Lufthansa. First leg was in business, second in coach. Each leg we had two hot meals, unlimited drinks (alcoholic and soft), and little touches like complimentary gourmet chocolates. In both classes.</p>
<p>Now, each of these flights was also sold as a UA code-share. If United goes down this nickel-and-dime path, the differences between the quality of the UA and LH products will become even wider than it is today, and this is going to make code-sharing problematic. If you were LH, would you want an LH customer purchasing an LH ticket to get such an inferior product?</p>
<p>Alliances and code-shares only work if the participants&#8217; products are comparable in quality and value.</p>
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		<title>By: Does it bother you that the travel industry is getting laughed at? - Travel - LATimes.com</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60536</link>
		<dc:creator>Does it bother you that the travel industry is getting laughed at? - Travel - LATimes.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60536</guid>
		<description>[...] &gt; United considers charging for meals internationally, drinks as well. [The Cranky Flier] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt; United considers charging for meals internationally, drinks as well. [The Cranky Flier] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Sack</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60133</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Sack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 10:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60133</guid>
		<description>Okay, so we have all lamented or lampooned the idea.  I will just carry my food and drink with me.  Perhaps that is just better, but I know it will be messier, in many ways.  I will fly to Istanbul this October.  When I arrive in Detroit from Fort Wayne I will pray to cross the Atlantic in a KLM flight, not a Northwest flight.  Why can (or do) the European carriers, in general, provide nicer service than their American counterparts?  The Northwest cabin staff are less polished and less respectful than their KLM counterparts.  I wonder why?  Can somebody clue me in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, so we have all lamented or lampooned the idea.  I will just carry my food and drink with me.  Perhaps that is just better, but I know it will be messier, in many ways.  I will fly to Istanbul this October.  When I arrive in Detroit from Fort Wayne I will pray to cross the Atlantic in a KLM flight, not a Northwest flight.  Why can (or do) the European carriers, in general, provide nicer service than their American counterparts?  The Northwest cabin staff are less polished and less respectful than their KLM counterparts.  I wonder why?  Can somebody clue me in?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60083</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60083</guid>
		<description>Just disappointing to see something like this come from an airline that was for decades a proud bird to fly on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just disappointing to see something like this come from an airline that was for decades a proud bird to fly on.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60081</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60081</guid>
		<description>LOL...charging for meals in coach on an international flight, what a hoot.

Boy oh boy, Openskies II is sooo gonna be ratified in 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL&#8230;charging for meals in coach on an international flight, what a hoot.</p>
<p>Boy oh boy, Openskies II is sooo gonna be ratified in 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: David SF east bay</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60076</link>
		<dc:creator>David SF east bay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60076</guid>
		<description>It would be one thing on the long haul International flights if they charged you say $40.00 period and you still get all the meals in flight you get now for that one price. It would be no different then an all you can eat Sunday buffet brunch at some high end Hotel. But a high cost per meal will not go over well with the public. I know if I had to pay a lot per meal that meal better be prepared the way I like it and serviced in the style it would be on the ground (like that will happen).

We seem to except something the way it is if it&#039;s free, but as soon as we have to pay, humans get very picky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be one thing on the long haul International flights if they charged you say $40.00 period and you still get all the meals in flight you get now for that one price. It would be no different then an all you can eat Sunday buffet brunch at some high end Hotel. But a high cost per meal will not go over well with the public. I know if I had to pay a lot per meal that meal better be prepared the way I like it and serviced in the style it would be on the ground (like that will happen).</p>
<p>We seem to except something the way it is if it&#8217;s free, but as soon as we have to pay, humans get very picky.</p>
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		<title>By: The Traveling Optimist</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/08/04/united-considers-charging-for-meals-internationally-drinks-as-well/comment-page-1/#comment-60067</link>
		<dc:creator>The Traveling Optimist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1132#comment-60067</guid>
		<description>Where to start, where to start.  First, a personal opinion.  My choice of meal is not dictated by whether or not the guy next to me is offended by my extravagance (or stupidity) in paying the highest price for the highest possible quality.  There is no flaunting here, unless the guy buying the steak does a spot-on Eddie Murphy Ice Cream routine.  As for anybody traveling on even a professional budget in today&#039;s economy, a $40 meal may be considered an extravagance on the ground, much less on an airplane.  Find out what your corporate travel policy says and get ready to potentially be surprised.

The longest I&#039;ve ever flown in coach was L.A. to Brisbane, fourteen hours.  A full meal right after take-off, chicken something was followed by a second equally full meal about seven hours in to the flight, beef something.  Then we had a landing meal of a light sandwhich and drinks before hauling in to Brisbane.  Top marks again for Qantas.  If United wants to charge in the face of that, WITH the new A380 coming down the pike against them, then they may as well discontinue the route.

The story also illustrates, guys, that the price would be PER meal.  For these ultra-long haul flights we&#039;re accustomed to up to THREE meal services.  Steak on the first go round, a salad to tide you over while you&#039;re sleeping then a gourmet sandwich to get you through customs and the cab ride to the hotel?  Add THAT up per person!

United must be rationalizing that movie theaters and ball parks don&#039;t allow outside food in to their venues and customers willingly fork over hard earned money for $8 beer, $6  popcorn and the like.  Quite literally that thinking just doesn&#039;t fly.  To limit what passengers can bring through security (next to nothing), then set-up the food vendors inside security with the best profits of their lives or face 16 hours on an airplane (don&#039;t forget boarding, taxiing and deplaning time) without a meal?  I agree with PRC - I see lawsuits on the horizon more than I do the disgruntled seatmate who can&#039;t or won&#039;t shell out for an over priced and under sized salad.

I like PRC&#039;s idea of pre-ordering and or upgrading the meal online prior to travel.  Unfortunately it won&#039;t work.  Consider, PRC, how often you have been delayed in your travels.  The meal you personally ordered, however, left on the original flight and they did not stock a replacement on the flight you eventually ended up taking, especially if you bought a meal on United but American ended up getting you home.  Definitely don&#039;t hold your breath if you missed your meal flight due to weather!

Final word against the whole idea that you fellow passengers must remember.  There is a major reason the portion sizes were never that large to begin with: There is only so much room on board even the largest airplane flying.  It is a serious business packing up to 1200 individual meals on to an airplane scheduled for 14 hours in the air.  If you&#039;re at the airport early enough, watch how long and count how many hi-lift service trucks it takes to cater a 747 going overseas.  

Your $40 steak won&#039;t get larger, comrades, you&#039;ve simply paid to guarantee that there&#039;s one on the plane for somebody.

Domestic travel is one thing.  I will come back to United for overseas flights only if each of their major competitors and alliance partners has started charging as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where to start, where to start.  First, a personal opinion.  My choice of meal is not dictated by whether or not the guy next to me is offended by my extravagance (or stupidity) in paying the highest price for the highest possible quality.  There is no flaunting here, unless the guy buying the steak does a spot-on Eddie Murphy Ice Cream routine.  As for anybody traveling on even a professional budget in today&#8217;s economy, a $40 meal may be considered an extravagance on the ground, much less on an airplane.  Find out what your corporate travel policy says and get ready to potentially be surprised.</p>
<p>The longest I&#8217;ve ever flown in coach was L.A. to Brisbane, fourteen hours.  A full meal right after take-off, chicken something was followed by a second equally full meal about seven hours in to the flight, beef something.  Then we had a landing meal of a light sandwhich and drinks before hauling in to Brisbane.  Top marks again for Qantas.  If United wants to charge in the face of that, WITH the new A380 coming down the pike against them, then they may as well discontinue the route.</p>
<p>The story also illustrates, guys, that the price would be PER meal.  For these ultra-long haul flights we&#8217;re accustomed to up to THREE meal services.  Steak on the first go round, a salad to tide you over while you&#8217;re sleeping then a gourmet sandwich to get you through customs and the cab ride to the hotel?  Add THAT up per person!</p>
<p>United must be rationalizing that movie theaters and ball parks don&#8217;t allow outside food in to their venues and customers willingly fork over hard earned money for $8 beer, $6  popcorn and the like.  Quite literally that thinking just doesn&#8217;t fly.  To limit what passengers can bring through security (next to nothing), then set-up the food vendors inside security with the best profits of their lives or face 16 hours on an airplane (don&#8217;t forget boarding, taxiing and deplaning time) without a meal?  I agree with PRC &#8211; I see lawsuits on the horizon more than I do the disgruntled seatmate who can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t shell out for an over priced and under sized salad.</p>
<p>I like PRC&#8217;s idea of pre-ordering and or upgrading the meal online prior to travel.  Unfortunately it won&#8217;t work.  Consider, PRC, how often you have been delayed in your travels.  The meal you personally ordered, however, left on the original flight and they did not stock a replacement on the flight you eventually ended up taking, especially if you bought a meal on United but American ended up getting you home.  Definitely don&#8217;t hold your breath if you missed your meal flight due to weather!</p>
<p>Final word against the whole idea that you fellow passengers must remember.  There is a major reason the portion sizes were never that large to begin with: There is only so much room on board even the largest airplane flying.  It is a serious business packing up to 1200 individual meals on to an airplane scheduled for 14 hours in the air.  If you&#8217;re at the airport early enough, watch how long and count how many hi-lift service trucks it takes to cater a 747 going overseas.  </p>
<p>Your $40 steak won&#8217;t get larger, comrades, you&#8217;ve simply paid to guarantee that there&#8217;s one on the plane for somebody.</p>
<p>Domestic travel is one thing.  I will come back to United for overseas flights only if each of their major competitors and alliance partners has started charging as well.</p>
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