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	<title>Comments on: Southwest Ends an Era While American Begins a New One</title>
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	<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/</link>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-44052</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 20:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-44052</guid>
		<description>Not that I fly AA very often, if ever, but I know that they won&#039;t be the only carrier to adopt the $15 first bag fee.  I completely understand they&#039;re under the gun with the sharp increase in fuel costs, but ignorance is bliss.  Don&#039;t nickel and dime me, just add it to the cost of the fare.

I think the scenarios the CF listed in the initial post are all likely possibilities due to this new fee.  If it was just included in the fare we wouldn&#039;t have to worry about running out of overhead space, fights around gate-checked baggage, longer lines at TSA, etc., etc.

I&#039;m crossing my fingers that either (a) AA realizes how poor an idea this is and rescinds the fee and/or (b) none of the others follow suit.

-MJT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that I fly AA very often, if ever, but I know that they won&#8217;t be the only carrier to adopt the $15 first bag fee.  I completely understand they&#8217;re under the gun with the sharp increase in fuel costs, but ignorance is bliss.  Don&#8217;t nickel and dime me, just add it to the cost of the fare.</p>
<p>I think the scenarios the CF listed in the initial post are all likely possibilities due to this new fee.  If it was just included in the fare we wouldn&#8217;t have to worry about running out of overhead space, fights around gate-checked baggage, longer lines at TSA, etc., etc.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m crossing my fingers that either (a) AA realizes how poor an idea this is and rescinds the fee and/or (b) none of the others follow suit.</p>
<p>-MJT</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-44000</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 05:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-44000</guid>
		<description>Welcome back, Nicholas Barnard.  I haven&#039;t seen a comment from you in a little while, so it&#039;s good to have you back.

I think it&#039;s a safe bet that the GDSs don&#039;t support this, but the airlines could still be like Air Canada and make it work on their website, at the very least.  One of these days, maybe the GDSs will figure out that their systems are so archaic that they no longer serve the customers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome back, Nicholas Barnard.  I haven&#8217;t seen a comment from you in a little while, so it&#8217;s good to have you back.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s a safe bet that the GDSs don&#8217;t support this, but the airlines could still be like Air Canada and make it work on their website, at the very least.  One of these days, maybe the GDSs will figure out that their systems are so archaic that they no longer serve the customers.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Barnard</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43998</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Barnard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 04:58:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43998</guid>
		<description>Jetstar&#039;s way around it is a great idea.  Its unbundling but in a way that is positive for the customer not negative.

Now the problem in the US comes down to would the GDSs as they&#039;re constituted now support this?  I&#039;m no expert on them but I&#039;d say no, at least not clearly.  You&#039;d have to have some fare class that doesn&#039;t include it.  However almost nobody reads the fine print on their fare class, and getting all of the various sellers to support it would be tough.

Now if the airlines could selectively release those fares to sellers that support that (Or even better, just sell them on their website.)  this would be a boon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jetstar&#8217;s way around it is a great idea.  Its unbundling but in a way that is positive for the customer not negative.</p>
<p>Now the problem in the US comes down to would the GDSs as they&#8217;re constituted now support this?  I&#8217;m no expert on them but I&#8217;d say no, at least not clearly.  You&#8217;d have to have some fare class that doesn&#8217;t include it.  However almost nobody reads the fine print on their fare class, and getting all of the various sellers to support it would be tough.</p>
<p>Now if the airlines could selectively release those fares to sellers that support that (Or even better, just sell them on their website.)  this would be a boon.</p>
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		<title>By: Marks</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43747</link>
		<dc:creator>Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 11:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43747</guid>
		<description>Blast - I forgot to mention.

Jetstar Airways in Australia is sort of doing the same thing as AA.

However, it is being a little more PR conscious.

Its &#039;normal&#039; fares are going up, but it has introduced a Jetstar &#039;light&#039; fare for cabin baggage only at a lower rate by about $20.  ie you pay extra if you have a checked in bag - but they make it look like a discount for a cabin bag only. LOL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blast &#8211; I forgot to mention.</p>
<p>Jetstar Airways in Australia is sort of doing the same thing as AA.</p>
<p>However, it is being a little more PR conscious.</p>
<p>Its &#8216;normal&#8217; fares are going up, but it has introduced a Jetstar &#8216;light&#8217; fare for cabin baggage only at a lower rate by about $20.  ie you pay extra if you have a checked in bag &#8211; but they make it look like a discount for a cabin bag only. LOL.</p>
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		<title>By: Marks</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43745</link>
		<dc:creator>Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 11:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43745</guid>
		<description>I guess there is the other option - carry less baggage.

I suppose winter flights and business flights mean people have a bulk of clothing to carry.

However, I never cease to be amazed by the size of luggage that some people carry.

Summer holiday travel should easily be able to be limited to cabin baggage.

I know that it is a matter of opinion what people should take - but when people take half their stuff &#039;just in case&#039; they need it, and they are going to places where they could buy the stuff &#039;if they ever need it&#039; and then they cart the stuff back cos &#039;they didn&#039;t need it after all&#039; I scratch my head.

When you work out that you could save twenty pounds per passenger times say one hundred - that&#039;s a ton of payload not carried - and a lot of fuel also not needed to be used or carried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess there is the other option &#8211; carry less baggage.</p>
<p>I suppose winter flights and business flights mean people have a bulk of clothing to carry.</p>
<p>However, I never cease to be amazed by the size of luggage that some people carry.</p>
<p>Summer holiday travel should easily be able to be limited to cabin baggage.</p>
<p>I know that it is a matter of opinion what people should take &#8211; but when people take half their stuff &#8216;just in case&#8217; they need it, and they are going to places where they could buy the stuff &#8216;if they ever need it&#8217; and then they cart the stuff back cos &#8216;they didn&#8217;t need it after all&#8217; I scratch my head.</p>
<p>When you work out that you could save twenty pounds per passenger times say one hundred &#8211; that&#8217;s a ton of payload not carried &#8211; and a lot of fuel also not needed to be used or carried.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43467</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 13:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43467</guid>
		<description>flylbb - I would have no problem paying $400-500 for a 2 hour roundtrip flight.  Problem I see is that ticket prices do not reflect the cost of flying across the board.  I often fly MSP-DFW for next to nothing, a heavily traveled route with plenty of competition.  Then I fly MSP-YYC and pay 4 to 5 times as much for a similar distance but with much less traffic and zero competition.  

Odds are NW is making money on that YYC route and losing on the DFW.  I&#039;m perfectly fine with the price I pay going to Calgary, but think it makes zero business sense to turn around and lose it on the Dallas one.  If you can&#039;t make money flying somewhere - don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>flylbb &#8211; I would have no problem paying $400-500 for a 2 hour roundtrip flight.  Problem I see is that ticket prices do not reflect the cost of flying across the board.  I often fly MSP-DFW for next to nothing, a heavily traveled route with plenty of competition.  Then I fly MSP-YYC and pay 4 to 5 times as much for a similar distance but with much less traffic and zero competition.  </p>
<p>Odds are NW is making money on that YYC route and losing on the DFW.  I&#8217;m perfectly fine with the price I pay going to Calgary, but think it makes zero business sense to turn around and lose it on the Dallas one.  If you can&#8217;t make money flying somewhere &#8211; don&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: flylbb</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43464</link>
		<dc:creator>flylbb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 12:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43464</guid>
		<description>Raise fares???

The Avg two hour flight needs about $50-60 per pax to cover gas these days.  The Avg Transcon needs about $110 per pax.

So, to cover all other costs, pay for the pilot contracts, and make a little bit to appease investors and to internally reinvest in the product, the two hr flight needs to price out over $200.  The Transcon over $350.

So let&#039;s see....CHI-HOU&#039;s cheapest price is $119 and LAX-BWI is at $99.

this is a problem....this is not modestly raising fares.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raise fares???</p>
<p>The Avg two hour flight needs about $50-60 per pax to cover gas these days.  The Avg Transcon needs about $110 per pax.</p>
<p>So, to cover all other costs, pay for the pilot contracts, and make a little bit to appease investors and to internally reinvest in the product, the two hr flight needs to price out over $200.  The Transcon over $350.</p>
<p>So let&#8217;s see&#8230;.CHI-HOU&#8217;s cheapest price is $119 and LAX-BWI is at $99.</p>
<p>this is a problem&#8230;.this is not modestly raising fares.</p>
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		<title>By: Remove the Barriers?</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43463</link>
		<dc:creator>Remove the Barriers?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 12:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43463</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s exactly the problem, these startups can&#039;t succeed in anything we need the legacies for (real network to small and international destinations), but, at the same time they drastically drive down fares on the routes they compete on.  Well, when you squeeze the balloon on that side, causing the legacies to lose money on those routes (e.g. Las Vegas, Orlando), the only place the balloon can stretch and the airlines can make their money, is international routes and routes to small airports, which don&#039;t have the competition.  So congratulations, you have more flights and overcapacity on your flight from podunk to Disney World, thanks to Ted, Spirit, ATA, Southwest, and blah blah blah -- now a traveler who wants to fly from ORD to MEM (500 miles) gets soaked for 500 bucks -- or who wants to fly from ORD to Europe gets nailed for over 1500 bucks.  Because those are the few places left where they can make ANY money, so they now have to abuse it to even stay afloat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly the problem, these startups can&#8217;t succeed in anything we need the legacies for (real network to small and international destinations), but, at the same time they drastically drive down fares on the routes they compete on.  Well, when you squeeze the balloon on that side, causing the legacies to lose money on those routes (e.g. Las Vegas, Orlando), the only place the balloon can stretch and the airlines can make their money, is international routes and routes to small airports, which don&#8217;t have the competition.  So congratulations, you have more flights and overcapacity on your flight from podunk to Disney World, thanks to Ted, Spirit, ATA, Southwest, and blah blah blah &#8212; now a traveler who wants to fly from ORD to MEM (500 miles) gets soaked for 500 bucks &#8212; or who wants to fly from ORD to Europe gets nailed for over 1500 bucks.  Because those are the few places left where they can make ANY money, so they now have to abuse it to even stay afloat.</p>
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		<title>By: Daren S</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43459</link>
		<dc:creator>Daren S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 11:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43459</guid>
		<description>I agree totally that we don&#039;t need cheaper fares but I don&#039;t see start-ups as providing true competition in these market conditions, they just can&#039;t get scale.  By removing foreign ownership rules, this will allow consolidation and by generating scale allow greater efficiency and ultimately profitability.  The Open Skies deal struck by the EU and US is under threat if this doesn&#039;t happen, so it will be interesting to see what transpires in the next couple of years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree totally that we don&#8217;t need cheaper fares but I don&#8217;t see start-ups as providing true competition in these market conditions, they just can&#8217;t get scale.  By removing foreign ownership rules, this will allow consolidation and by generating scale allow greater efficiency and ultimately profitability.  The Open Skies deal struck by the EU and US is under threat if this doesn&#8217;t happen, so it will be interesting to see what transpires in the next couple of years.</p>
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		<title>By: Remove the Barriers?</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/22/southwest-ends-an-era-while-american-begins-a-new-one/comment-page-1/#comment-43439</link>
		<dc:creator>Remove the Barriers?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 02:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=1038#comment-43439</guid>
		<description>With all respect to Daren S. I don&#039;t know if removing barriers to entry is a great solution.  There are already hardly any barriers to entry, hence the reason there are always startup airlines willing to undercut the legacies and provide less service while driving fares down to the point of unsustainability.  Spirit, ATA, USA3000, Go!, just to name a few.  We don&#039;t need more of that.  It will just result in the likes of Ryanair setting up shop here and service getting even worse and our remaining few real airlines going belly up.  (Or &quot;tits-up&quot; as they like to say over there)

We don&#039;t need cheaper fares.  What we need is fares that reflect the cost of doing business, and the cut in capacity that will cause a reduction in air traffic congestion and hence overall better service.  I can only see that happening with less competition, not more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all respect to Daren S. I don&#8217;t know if removing barriers to entry is a great solution.  There are already hardly any barriers to entry, hence the reason there are always startup airlines willing to undercut the legacies and provide less service while driving fares down to the point of unsustainability.  Spirit, ATA, USA3000, Go!, just to name a few.  We don&#8217;t need more of that.  It will just result in the likes of Ryanair setting up shop here and service getting even worse and our remaining few real airlines going belly up.  (Or &#8220;tits-up&#8221; as they like to say over there)</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t need cheaper fares.  What we need is fares that reflect the cost of doing business, and the cut in capacity that will cause a reduction in air traffic congestion and hence overall better service.  I can only see that happening with less competition, not more.</p>
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