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	<title>Comments on: Airlines and the Environment</title>
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	<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/</link>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-74756</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-74756</guid>
		<description>We need both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need both.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-56081</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-56081</guid>
		<description>I think no matter which way you look at it, both cars and airplanes are not the best for the environment.  But the thing is, people still need to get from point A to B so until a form of transportation is encouraged in the US that produces less gases we really have no other options.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think no matter which way you look at it, both cars and airplanes are not the best for the environment.  But the thing is, people still need to get from point A to B so until a form of transportation is encouraged in the US that produces less gases we really have no other options.</p>
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		<title>By: The Cranky Flier &#187; JetBlue&#8217;s Green Initiative Means Only One Change You&#8217;ll Notice</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-45928</link>
		<dc:creator>The Cranky Flier &#187; JetBlue&#8217;s Green Initiative Means Only One Change You&#8217;ll Notice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-45928</guid>
		<description>[...] So that&#8217;s not a change. Again, it&#8217;s mostly just bundling it up for PR purposes, and as I said a couple weeks ago, that&#8217;s smart for them to be proactive here. But for you, well, you might be able to win a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So that&#8217;s not a change. Again, it&#8217;s mostly just bundling it up for PR purposes, and as I said a couple weeks ago, that&#8217;s smart for them to be proactive here. But for you, well, you might be able to win a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43441</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 03:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43441</guid>
		<description>It is misleading to say that switching into cars will become more polluting. People will probably start thinking differently about the need to travel and not do it tall.

Part of why flying is so polluting (relatively) is that growth is so big due to convenience and low price. If you price most of this use out of people, then they will think twice about being there at all and figure out alternatives like teleportation (I&#039;m kidding). I am sure London-Barcelona daily commutes might become a thing of the past then.  

The root of the problem with transportation is that we subsidize so much of the wrong transportation infrastructure (airports, roads, ATC) and not enough of the right one such as rail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is misleading to say that switching into cars will become more polluting. People will probably start thinking differently about the need to travel and not do it tall.</p>
<p>Part of why flying is so polluting (relatively) is that growth is so big due to convenience and low price. If you price most of this use out of people, then they will think twice about being there at all and figure out alternatives like teleportation (I&#8217;m kidding). I am sure London-Barcelona daily commutes might become a thing of the past then.  </p>
<p>The root of the problem with transportation is that we subsidize so much of the wrong transportation infrastructure (airports, roads, ATC) and not enough of the right one such as rail.</p>
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		<title>By: Number 23</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43219</link>
		<dc:creator>Number 23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 20:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43219</guid>
		<description>CF - 

You are right it would be unfair to raise taxes on the airlines directly and just shifting people into cars isn&#039;t an answer.  What we need to do is raise taxes on all forms of fuel and/or emissions, sort of a carbon tax.  This way consumers will shift their choices towards the method of transportation that is best for the environment because it will also be better for their wallets, or choose alternatives like electronic meetings where possible.  In the meantime, we must earmark those additional taxes to go to investments in improving alternative energy.  Other than a few left-wing radicals, the masses won&#039;t choose a transportation method purely on environmental reasons, we must make it a financially attractive option to be aligned with sustainability.  This will also lead us towards a path of more energy independence, but that is a topic for a different blog.

BTW - Higher fuel taxes will hurt the economy but our economy is too strong for it to have dire consequences like some people are proposing.  Europe seems to be doing just fine with fuel prices that have been double our prices for decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CF &#8211; </p>
<p>You are right it would be unfair to raise taxes on the airlines directly and just shifting people into cars isn&#8217;t an answer.  What we need to do is raise taxes on all forms of fuel and/or emissions, sort of a carbon tax.  This way consumers will shift their choices towards the method of transportation that is best for the environment because it will also be better for their wallets, or choose alternatives like electronic meetings where possible.  In the meantime, we must earmark those additional taxes to go to investments in improving alternative energy.  Other than a few left-wing radicals, the masses won&#8217;t choose a transportation method purely on environmental reasons, we must make it a financially attractive option to be aligned with sustainability.  This will also lead us towards a path of more energy independence, but that is a topic for a different blog.</p>
<p>BTW &#8211; Higher fuel taxes will hurt the economy but our economy is too strong for it to have dire consequences like some people are proposing.  Europe seems to be doing just fine with fuel prices that have been double our prices for decades.</p>
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		<title>By: A</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43212</link>
		<dc:creator>A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 16:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43212</guid>
		<description>About the cost per mile difference when comparing air vs. auto I alway look at the bottom line.  On a recent flight I figured straight ticket price vs. gasoline cost at 25mpg.  The pump price would have to be over $10/gallon to make the airfare cheaper...and we all know if gasoline was that much the airfares would be much higher.  It&#039;s an evaluation of how much my time is worth, what dining &amp; lodging will cost while on the road.  What a rental car would cost if flying, etc.  More often than not, if time isn&#039;t a concern, driving is cheaper.  Add the cost of a 2nd ticket/passenger and driving is almost a no brainer it&#039;s so much cheaper.  That said, it&#039;s tough to find the time with busy work/family schedules...and I&#039;m not driving to Europe or Asia very easily.  

I do find it ridiculous that people fly short &quot;commuter&quot; routes like LAX to SFO when a European or Japanese style high speed train could accomplish the task more efficiently and probably faster given modern airport delays.  For anything under 1000 miles I&#039;d prefer the train given my experiences across the pond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About the cost per mile difference when comparing air vs. auto I alway look at the bottom line.  On a recent flight I figured straight ticket price vs. gasoline cost at 25mpg.  The pump price would have to be over $10/gallon to make the airfare cheaper&#8230;and we all know if gasoline was that much the airfares would be much higher.  It&#8217;s an evaluation of how much my time is worth, what dining &amp; lodging will cost while on the road.  What a rental car would cost if flying, etc.  More often than not, if time isn&#8217;t a concern, driving is cheaper.  Add the cost of a 2nd ticket/passenger and driving is almost a no brainer it&#8217;s so much cheaper.  That said, it&#8217;s tough to find the time with busy work/family schedules&#8230;and I&#8217;m not driving to Europe or Asia very easily.  </p>
<p>I do find it ridiculous that people fly short &#8220;commuter&#8221; routes like LAX to SFO when a European or Japanese style high speed train could accomplish the task more efficiently and probably faster given modern airport delays.  For anything under 1000 miles I&#8217;d prefer the train given my experiences across the pond.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43210</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 16:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43210</guid>
		<description>Have to disagree here. Good statistics are hard to find but this article approximates it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation

Basically, the fuel usage in liters per passenger mile is similar for fully-loaded planes as for fully-loaded cars, but when you look at how much less efficient kerosene is than diesel or (non-ethanol-mixed) gasoline, and the fact that so many passenger miles are on regional jets and inefficient old planes, I&#039;d bet the plane stats are overly optimistic.

Of course, the one solution you recognise but fail to expand upon here is to improve the rail networks in America and Asia, and start seeing air travel as a long-haul-only sport. This would reduce the reliance on highly inefficient regional jets, not to mention cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have to disagree here. Good statistics are hard to find but this article approximates it:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation</a></p>
<p>Basically, the fuel usage in liters per passenger mile is similar for fully-loaded planes as for fully-loaded cars, but when you look at how much less efficient kerosene is than diesel or (non-ethanol-mixed) gasoline, and the fact that so many passenger miles are on regional jets and inefficient old planes, I&#8217;d bet the plane stats are overly optimistic.</p>
<p>Of course, the one solution you recognise but fail to expand upon here is to improve the rail networks in America and Asia, and start seeing air travel as a long-haul-only sport. This would reduce the reliance on highly inefficient regional jets, not to mention cars.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43209</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 16:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43209</guid>
		<description>Amen Cranky,

I couldn&#039;t agree with you more. For the record, I am not an environmentalist, I work in the financial sector and both my business and personal consumption decisions are driven by the bottom line. That being said I do my part by recycling and where economicically viable I make ecologically sensitive choices but I refuse to pay more for that choice. I.e if the grocery store gives free plastic bags, I wont pay for a reusable bag. I do however reuse the plastic bags.

While I think it is a noble move by the airlines to offer voluntary participation in carbon ofset programs I fear the reality of it becoming a manditory &quot;tax&quot;. An aircraft will fly whether I am on it or not and my flying on any particular day will not contirute any more or less to the decline of the environment. Cranly, you are 110% right that it is not the responsibilty of the airline or the passenger to shoulder the costs of environmental impact of their current fleet of aircraft. They just bought the best equipment that was available. Greening should start with the manufacturer and they should be encouraged to design green with various incentives.

On a related note, I am noticing that car rental companies are starting to offer a voluntary carbon ofset charge - why???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen Cranky,</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more. For the record, I am not an environmentalist, I work in the financial sector and both my business and personal consumption decisions are driven by the bottom line. That being said I do my part by recycling and where economicically viable I make ecologically sensitive choices but I refuse to pay more for that choice. I.e if the grocery store gives free plastic bags, I wont pay for a reusable bag. I do however reuse the plastic bags.</p>
<p>While I think it is a noble move by the airlines to offer voluntary participation in carbon ofset programs I fear the reality of it becoming a manditory &#8220;tax&#8221;. An aircraft will fly whether I am on it or not and my flying on any particular day will not contirute any more or less to the decline of the environment. Cranly, you are 110% right that it is not the responsibilty of the airline or the passenger to shoulder the costs of environmental impact of their current fleet of aircraft. They just bought the best equipment that was available. Greening should start with the manufacturer and they should be encouraged to design green with various incentives.</p>
<p>On a related note, I am noticing that car rental companies are starting to offer a voluntary carbon ofset charge &#8211; why???</p>
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		<title>By: DRG</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43206</link>
		<dc:creator>DRG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 14:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43206</guid>
		<description>Comparing what happened in the auto industry to the aircraft manufacturing sector is a bit silly, me thinks.  Automobiles are a consumer product.  Aircraft are primarily sold to corporations -- corporations for which fuel is now becoming one of their top costs.  The dynamics of what goes into an aircraft purchase are very different.  There was a time when more fuel efficient models were being promoted, like the propofan powered Boeing 7J7, but these are extremely different times. 

In terms of perception, sure there is a huge problem.  But in terms of actual progress on this issue, I do not believe there is.  Both airlines and the manufacturers who build for them already have plenty of incentive to create more fuel efficient aircraft.  And aircraft today already are 70% more fuel efficient than the aircraft of 50 years ago.  USA Today recently reported that during 2001-2006, aircraft emissions were down 13% -- despite an increase in traffic during that time period.

The big problem is perception.  Certainly airlines in North America (and other stakeholders) do need to step up a bit on that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing what happened in the auto industry to the aircraft manufacturing sector is a bit silly, me thinks.  Automobiles are a consumer product.  Aircraft are primarily sold to corporations &#8212; corporations for which fuel is now becoming one of their top costs.  The dynamics of what goes into an aircraft purchase are very different.  There was a time when more fuel efficient models were being promoted, like the propofan powered Boeing 7J7, but these are extremely different times. </p>
<p>In terms of perception, sure there is a huge problem.  But in terms of actual progress on this issue, I do not believe there is.  Both airlines and the manufacturers who build for them already have plenty of incentive to create more fuel efficient aircraft.  And aircraft today already are 70% more fuel efficient than the aircraft of 50 years ago.  USA Today recently reported that during 2001-2006, aircraft emissions were down 13% &#8212; despite an increase in traffic during that time period.</p>
<p>The big problem is perception.  Certainly airlines in North America (and other stakeholders) do need to step up a bit on that.</p>
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		<title>By: Daren S</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2008/05/19/airlines-and-the-environment/comment-page-1/#comment-43200</link>
		<dc:creator>Daren S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 09:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/?p=964#comment-43200</guid>
		<description>Here in Europe, even with relatively good public transport infrastructure, flying is still essential for business and leisure trips.  Yes London to Paris is still viable by train, in fact it&#039;s quicker, but many other European cities just can&#039;t be reached quick enough by high speed trains and thus flying is the only option.  And for those not living in capital city locations, Europe is very similar to the US. The fact is that oil has been a pretty cheap commodity for a very long time, only in the last year or so has the price been going through the roof.  This clearly focuses the issue of cutting out any inefficiency and therefore benefitting the environment.  The problem is that all these new technologies take such a long time to filter through.  New planes take years to come to market and new materials and engines even longer.  In the meantime we will see airlines grounding their most inefficient aircraft as BA has hinted at.  Maybe greater co-operation between airlines will bring both economic and environmental benefits by ensuring planes leave full making the industry more fuel efficient in these tougher market conditions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here in Europe, even with relatively good public transport infrastructure, flying is still essential for business and leisure trips.  Yes London to Paris is still viable by train, in fact it&#8217;s quicker, but many other European cities just can&#8217;t be reached quick enough by high speed trains and thus flying is the only option.  And for those not living in capital city locations, Europe is very similar to the US. The fact is that oil has been a pretty cheap commodity for a very long time, only in the last year or so has the price been going through the roof.  This clearly focuses the issue of cutting out any inefficiency and therefore benefitting the environment.  The problem is that all these new technologies take such a long time to filter through.  New planes take years to come to market and new materials and engines even longer.  In the meantime we will see airlines grounding their most inefficient aircraft as BA has hinted at.  Maybe greater co-operation between airlines will bring both economic and environmental benefits by ensuring planes leave full making the industry more fuel efficient in these tougher market conditions.</p>
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