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	<title>Comments on: More on Taxes and FAA Reauthorization</title>
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	<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The Cranky Flier &#187; Horizon Air Takes on the Slog</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-5070</link>
		<dc:creator>The Cranky Flier &#187; Horizon Air Takes on the Slog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] other airlines are waiting for tax relief to help their short haul flights thrive, Horizon Air has decided to go on the offensive with a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] other airlines are waiting for tax relief to help their short haul flights thrive, Horizon Air has decided to go on the offensive with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Cranky Flier &#187; Horizon Air Takes on the Slog</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-5071</link>
		<dc:creator>The Cranky Flier &#187; Horizon Air Takes on the Slog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-5071</guid>
		<description>[...] other airlines are waiting for tax relief to help their short haul flights thrive, Horizon Air has decided to go on the offensive with a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] other airlines are waiting for tax relief to help their short haul flights thrive, Horizon Air has decided to go on the offensive with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SeaFlyer</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-4915</link>
		<dc:creator>SeaFlyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-4915</guid>
		<description>Dear Clark:

It is clearly all the network carriers' fault.  They have been growing at 30% per year at the most congested airports.   Wait -- maybe they haven't.  Did you ever stop to think that perhaps a hub and spoke is, in fact, quite efficient, as it maximizes the traffic/demand on the fewest amount of flights?  I certainly don't want to pick on Jetblue or anyone specifically but I think you might be best-served not spewing nice catch-phrases before you actually think them through.  There is a place for both point-to-point, and hub &#38; spoke flying in this nation's airline industry, and in fact most airlines use both models in their own networks.  This includes JetBlue, Airtran, and Southwest, though they might disguise them with other names.  Whether or not the 250-mi rule is another foolish thing the ATA is trying in order to squeeze more value out of its proposal for the member carriers, what is clear is that a new system most-likely needs implementation in order to make the system/funding far more equitable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Clark:</p>
<p>It is clearly all the network carriers&#8217; fault.  They have been growing at 30% per year at the most congested airports.   Wait &#8212; maybe they haven&#8217;t.  Did you ever stop to think that perhaps a hub and spoke is, in fact, quite efficient, as it maximizes the traffic/demand on the fewest amount of flights?  I certainly don&#8217;t want to pick on Jetblue or anyone specifically but I think you might be best-served not spewing nice catch-phrases before you actually think them through.  There is a place for both point-to-point, and hub &amp; spoke flying in this nation&#8217;s airline industry, and in fact most airlines use both models in their own networks.  This includes JetBlue, Airtran, and Southwest, though they might disguise them with other names.  Whether or not the 250-mi rule is another foolish thing the ATA is trying in order to squeeze more value out of its proposal for the member carriers, what is clear is that a new system most-likely needs implementation in order to make the system/funding far more equitable.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-4887</guid>
		<description>Great analysis!  Let me state that I don't agree with the user fees proposal.  Putting that aside, one way to explain the 250 mile exemption is that those miles are built into the departure tax.  The first and last segments of the flights are the heaviest in terms of ATC time.  While traveling up and down, the plane is crossing multiple altitudes where other planes are flying, often makes several turns to get onto its main flight path, and is changing speeds.  This requires continual support from ATC.  Once at a stable flight level, ATC is still continuously monitoring the flight but does not need to put much effort into it besides the handoffs from station to station.  I don't know how far out commercial jets begin their descent but combined with the climb to altitude, this could easily hit 250 miles.  On a short flight, a pilot may only end up speaking to departure control then approach control at the next airport.  Therefore this portion of the flight should be considered part of the fixed landing/take-off cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great analysis!  Let me state that I don&#8217;t agree with the user fees proposal.  Putting that aside, one way to explain the 250 mile exemption is that those miles are built into the departure tax.  The first and last segments of the flights are the heaviest in terms of ATC time.  While traveling up and down, the plane is crossing multiple altitudes where other planes are flying, often makes several turns to get onto its main flight path, and is changing speeds.  This requires continual support from ATC.  Once at a stable flight level, ATC is still continuously monitoring the flight but does not need to put much effort into it besides the handoffs from station to station.  I don&#8217;t know how far out commercial jets begin their descent but combined with the climb to altitude, this could easily hit 250 miles.  On a short flight, a pilot may only end up speaking to departure control then approach control at the next airport.  Therefore this portion of the flight should be considered part of the fixed landing/take-off cost.</p>
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		<title>By: CF</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-4886</link>
		<dc:creator>CF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-4886</guid>
		<description>I was simply using ORD-PHL-DFW as an extreme example to more clearly demonstrate the difference.  It's obviously rare that anyone would have such a circuitous routing, but routings like SEA-PHX-ORD, RDU-ORD-LAS, or one I recently almost purchased, LAX-ATL-IND are still significantly different in terms of number of miles versus the nonstop option.

As for the small city argument, I think we agree that most people from small cities are connecting through a hub and not ending their journey at it.  But that connecting itinerary will be over 250 miles so the passenger will end up paying some taxes on the trip.  I can do some number crunching on this when I get some time, but I'll bet that of all the people who fly on itineraries that are less than 250 miles, most of them are in business markets like the ones I mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was simply using ORD-PHL-DFW as an extreme example to more clearly demonstrate the difference.  It&#8217;s obviously rare that anyone would have such a circuitous routing, but routings like SEA-PHX-ORD, RDU-ORD-LAS, or one I recently almost purchased, LAX-ATL-IND are still significantly different in terms of number of miles versus the nonstop option.</p>
<p>As for the small city argument, I think we agree that most people from small cities are connecting through a hub and not ending their journey at it.  But that connecting itinerary will be over 250 miles so the passenger will end up paying some taxes on the trip.  I can do some number crunching on this when I get some time, but I&#8217;ll bet that of all the people who fly on itineraries that are less than 250 miles, most of them are in business markets like the ones I mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-4884</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-4884</guid>
		<description>The legacy carriers use an old and outmoded system and this “user fee” is just another way to try and close the revolving door to bankruptcy court they seem to be in. The hub-and-spoke system that airlines have been clinging to so dearly produces these outrageous flights (and the outrageous delays that go with them). The airlines should have to pay based on how many miles they actually fly, not just the distance between departure city and destination. If they are going to waste time flying to Philly on their way to Dallas from Chicago they should have to pay for it. And leave the efficient fliers – general aviation and point-to-point carriers like JetBlue – alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The legacy carriers use an old and outmoded system and this “user fee” is just another way to try and close the revolving door to bankruptcy court they seem to be in. The hub-and-spoke system that airlines have been clinging to so dearly produces these outrageous flights (and the outrageous delays that go with them). The airlines should have to pay based on how many miles they actually fly, not just the distance between departure city and destination. If they are going to waste time flying to Philly on their way to Dallas from Chicago they should have to pay for it. And leave the efficient fliers – general aviation and point-to-point carriers like JetBlue – alone.</p>
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		<title>By: SeaFlyer</title>
		<link>http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/comment-page-1/#comment-4882</link>
		<dc:creator>SeaFlyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crankyflier.com/2007/09/06/more-on-taxes-and-faa-reauthorization/#comment-4882</guid>
		<description>I have no skin in this game and definitely wonder how things skew either way once a thorough number crunch is made, but I have to say your use of the ORD-PHL-DFW routing is a pretty extreme example to the opposite and definitely weakens your credibility.  Go find me what percentage of any O&#38;D market actually takes a 2.5 circuity routing.  I can certainly see why Jetblue might actually have a beef on some quirks here but they also want things to benefit them (and are not ATA members).  I think the ATA proposal (or something similar) could prove much more fair than current and think that the small community argument actually holds some water.  Remember these people aren't just flying 250 miles or less, they are connecting via a hub, without which they wouldn't have service in the first place.  Just a thought.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no skin in this game and definitely wonder how things skew either way once a thorough number crunch is made, but I have to say your use of the ORD-PHL-DFW routing is a pretty extreme example to the opposite and definitely weakens your credibility.  Go find me what percentage of any O&amp;D market actually takes a 2.5 circuity routing.  I can certainly see why Jetblue might actually have a beef on some quirks here but they also want things to benefit them (and are not ATA members).  I think the ATA proposal (or something similar) could prove much more fair than current and think that the small community argument actually holds some water.  Remember these people aren&#8217;t just flying 250 miles or less, they are connecting via a hub, without which they wouldn&#8217;t have service in the first place.  Just a thought.</p>
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