Comments on: The Freedoms of the Air http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/ Thu, 24 May 2012 01:25:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: CF http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-70828 CF Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:40:43 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-70828 anon - Well, it's unclear what will actually happen, but that is the threat. The previous open skies agreement was signed with the understanding that follow-on talks to allow cabotage (ninth freedom flying) would be held. I highly doubt that we'll see the US actually approve this measure, and if that's the case, the EU will have to decide whether to back out or not. anon – Well, it’s unclear what will actually happen, but that is the threat. The previous open skies agreement was signed with the understanding that follow-on talks to allow cabotage (ninth freedom flying) would be held. I highly doubt that we’ll see the US actually approve this measure, and if that’s the case, the EU will have to decide whether to back out or not.

]]> By: anon http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-70824 anon Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:07:33 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-70824 Is it not true that the open skies agreement will be revoked in the next few years if America continues to withhold 9th freedom rights to European carriers? Is it not true that the open skies agreement will be revoked in the next few years if America continues to withhold 9th freedom rights to European carriers?

]]> By: CF http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-7544 CF Tue, 23 Oct 2007 03:38:09 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-7544 Sure thing. In the EU, any airline based in the EU can fly between any two cities in an EU country. So for example, Germany-based Air Berlin flies nonstop from London to Manchester. I don't know if you consider that a pure example since it's part of the EU, but there are others. Singapore-based Tiger Airways will begin intra-Australia flights next month. Technically, it's a separate airline, but it is 100% owned by Tiger Airways. Sure thing. In the EU, any airline based in the EU can fly between any two cities in an EU country. So for example, Germany-based Air Berlin flies nonstop from London to Manchester.

I don’t know if you consider that a pure example since it’s part of the EU, but there are others. Singapore-based Tiger Airways will begin intra-Australia flights next month. Technically, it’s a separate airline, but it is 100% owned by Tiger Airways.

]]> By: Mervin http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-7539 Mervin Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:14:03 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-7539 Can anyone give me an example of an existing route flown under the ninth freedom of pure cabotage? I know this procedure is not followed in the US. Can anyone give me an example of an existing route flown under the ninth freedom of pure cabotage? I know this procedure is not followed in the US.

]]> By: John Macilree http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-137 John Macilree Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:52:00 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-137 Delighted to see you using Air New Zealand flights in your examples. To give some examples of the intergovernment air services/transportation agreements that exchange these rights, the standard US "open skies" bilateral agreement exchanges the first six freedoms and seventh freedom for cargo services only, that between New Zealand and Australia exchanges all nine freedoms(excluding seventh freedom passenger rights) and Qantas, an Australian airline, uses these rights to have 100% owned subsidiary operate ninth freedom domestic flights between three cities within New Zealand, while the recent agreement between New Zealand and the United Kingdom exchanges all nine freedoms of the air. I am not aware of any other such agreement that exchanges all nine although those countries that have signed up to the MALIAT (see http://www.maliat.govt.nz/) and its Protocol have exchanged all except the ninth freedom. Delighted to see you using Air New Zealand flights in your examples. To give some examples of the intergovernment air services/transportation agreements that exchange these rights, the standard US “open skies” bilateral agreement exchanges the first six freedoms and seventh freedom for cargo services only, that between New Zealand and Australia exchanges all nine freedoms(excluding seventh freedom passenger rights) and Qantas, an Australian airline, uses these rights to have 100% owned subsidiary operate ninth freedom domestic flights between three cities within New Zealand, while the recent agreement between New Zealand and the United Kingdom exchanges all nine freedoms of the air. I am not aware of any other such agreement that exchanges all nine although those countries that have signed up to the MALIAT (see http://www.maliat.govt.nz/) and its Protocol have exchanged all except the ninth freedom.

]]> By: The CF http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-138 The CF Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:06:00 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-138 Good questions, spike. The Freedoms apply on a country-by-country basis. So, as the anonymous comment noted, Singapore has Fifth Freedom rights between the US and Germany. Because of that, Singapore Air can fly JFK - Frankfurt. (There are other issues like slots and government approvals, but you get the basic idea.)<br /><br />As someone who supports freedom of competition, I think that the more Freedoms agreed upon by countries, the better off the consumer will be. If the US gave cabotage rights to Singapore, I would be happy to let Singapore Air try to offer a better product. That's why I'd also like to see Virgin America allowed to try. If they can't compete, they'll go away on their own, but if they can offer a better product, then let them in!<br /><br />But for now, there are some really cool Fifth Freedom routes in the US that are great for customers. Qantas flies a seasonal San Francisco to Vancouver route, Malaysia flies Newark to Stockholm, and Cathay Pacific flies JFK to Vancouver. You can get some incredible service flying those guys. Good questions, spike. The Freedoms apply on a country-by-country basis. So, as the anonymous comment noted, Singapore has Fifth Freedom rights between the US and Germany. Because of that, Singapore Air can fly JFK – Frankfurt. (There are other issues like slots and government approvals, but you get the basic idea.)

As someone who supports freedom of competition, I think that the more Freedoms agreed upon by countries, the better off the consumer will be. If the US gave cabotage rights to Singapore, I would be happy to let Singapore Air try to offer a better product. That’s why I’d also like to see Virgin America allowed to try. If they can’t compete, they’ll go away on their own, but if they can offer a better product, then let them in!

But for now, there are some really cool Fifth Freedom routes in the US that are great for customers. Qantas flies a seasonal San Francisco to Vancouver route, Malaysia flies Newark to Stockholm, and Cathay Pacific flies JFK to Vancouver. You can get some incredible service flying those guys.

]]> By: Anonymous http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-139 Anonymous Fri, 29 Dec 2006 01:50:00 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-139 Well, it means more choices really. Granted, it is not all that apparent.<br /><br />One of my favorite fifth freedom flights is SQ 26, the Singapore Air flight from Frankfurt - JFK. It is actually SIN-FRA-JFK but you can just pick-up the FRA-JFK flight.<br /><br />Once I found myself in London and instead of taking LH or UA I opted to spend a few days in Cologne before making my way to Frankfurt and picking-up the SQ flight to JFK.<br /><br />(Coincidentally that flight is the best flight experience I've ever had to this day.) Well, it means more choices really. Granted, it is not all that apparent.

One of my favorite fifth freedom flights is SQ 26, the Singapore Air flight from Frankfurt – JFK. It is actually SIN-FRA-JFK but you can just pick-up the FRA-JFK flight.

Once I found myself in London and instead of taking LH or UA I opted to spend a few days in Cologne before making my way to Frankfurt and picking-up the SQ flight to JFK.

(Coincidentally that flight is the best flight experience I’ve ever had to this day.)

]]> By: .spike. http://crankyflier.com/2006/12/28/freedoms-of-air/comment-page-1/#comment-140 .spike. Fri, 29 Dec 2006 01:29:00 +0000 http://crankyflier.com/?p=203#comment-140 So what does this mean for the everyday flier? Do all airlines follow these freedoms? I mean, like you said, that last one doesn't necessarily apply in the US. We don't allow foreign airlines to fly domestic routes unless it's a continuation. So what does this mean for the everyday flier? Do all airlines follow these freedoms? I mean, like you said, that last one doesn’t necessarily apply in the US. We don’t allow foreign airlines to fly domestic routes unless it’s a continuation.

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